Hitting/kicking sprees! What consequences? Other advice?

amother

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 1:20 pm

I am not sure what brought this on but my preschooler (4) has suddenly started strongly testing us both at home and in school. DC has had minor behavior issues in the past but generally proactive structure, positive strategies, and mild consequences have been enough to keep DC basically on the right track (DC reacts pretty strongly to any consequence, so it's good that the minor ones basically work...)

Examples of minor consequences have been things like not getting dessert (which is not even served at every meal, we have fruit for dessert sometimes on weekdays and cake on Shabbos), you can only do [what you want to do] after you do [what I told you to do], things like that. Rarely I have given time-outs, which are generally cooperated with. That combined with a firm tone of voice usually wards off misbehavior. Besides for that I try to heap on the positive strategies - problem-solving, encouragement, random reinforcement both with praise and occasionally treats (such as a sticker, or if DC asks for something that I might hesitate about I will say "you've been doing ____ so nicely, I know I can trust you with [computer game, gluey craft, etc]) Also I guess until now I've been pretty lucky to have a child who is generally eager to please.

But lately we have had a spate of what I imagine is testing. I am trying to give more love and attention and proactive strategies before incidents happen, but I really need to plan what to do when things happen because things really came to a head last night and I know I didn't react effectively because I was so caught off-guard.

Basically it started with not wanting to cooperate getting ready for bed, and when I gave my usual line (shtick and delays = no time for stories before bed) instead of either starting to cooperate or continuing to act silly (resulting in no story, but not a huge deal either way - silliness is silliness) DC hit me. I said time out on your bed, now. DC did not cooperate with going. I picked up DC and deposited on bed, DC popped right out and hit again. I returned DC to bed and DC started kicking. This was not random flailing (which does happen occasionally) not a tantrum, very purposeful, direct hitting/kicking like "let's see what's gonna happen now" I'm not going to go into how the whole rest of the evening ensued because my point is not to have my discipline picked apart, I KNOW I was not effective in this instance. Problem is I really was caught off guard, have never had such bad behavior before (and it's not because DC has never hit or kicked, but the difference is here it was persistent and purposeful, and did not respond to the usual warnings/consequences. Usually DC will realize right away by my tone that they did wrong and will immediately start showing remorse, and we talk it over, and there is usually some consequence involved but it's more of a token formality because the situation is basically resolved. Or I will end the scene by putting DC in time out and/or leaving the scene myself saying I need to think of what needs to happen next, and DC gets all subdued worrying what that will be. Here it was obviously rebellious and only escalated, kept pushing/testing without responding to warnings or consequences, ran after me even when I tried delaying to think about what to do) so I had no idea what to do. So you don't need to tell me I handled it all wrong; I know this already, what I'm asking is how DO you handle this kind of thing?

The whole situation felt so out of control and I am worried about what it will do to DC to realize that their parents have no idea what they're doing... Sad

granolamom

Wed, Jan 21 2015, 4:07 pm

Well, I handle things wrong more often than I like to think about.
I think that you're on track to figuring out what will work in your family, we learn from mistakes, so you've gotten the first one out of the way. I wouldn't worry about long term, you sound like a really thoughtful and purposeful parent, not at all like flying by the seat of your pants without a clue.

To answer your question though, I would have looked at doc in the eye, and very calmly said you do not hit your mommy and walked away. Probably into my bedroom, possibly lock the door if he'd come after me. Then, I'd probably call my sister for advice, lol. After I'd calm down I'd probably have a sense of how to progress (come out, go to doc and in a friendly way ask if he's ready to start over, that often works for my kids and hitting at that age)
But that strategy took me years of mistakes to figure out.

amother

Sat, Jan 24 2015, 8:01 pm

Help. It's happened again two more times since I posted and were losing it. I'm so worried. Everything I do seems to only escalate the whole thing and never help. I feel like the whole situation is totally out of control. I don't know how this happened, always though we had such a fine loving parenting relationship and now were just locked into this huge power struggle that everyone loses.

There is nothing strange going on except cd had strep last week which might have explained the first episode but now has been on antibiotics and probiotics for several days already. And even if it is because of that still don't know how to handle it. It is so purposeful, with this "ha ha I got you" attitude throughout.

I took away a favorite toy as a punishment. I feel awful because I like to preserve the kids sense if personal space and property but I was at my wits end (I also don't believe in physical control past maybe 2 years old, but this case was so out of control that we tried some of that too - physically putting dc in time out, holding dc there, no point). So that made dc even more angry and cried for a while but soon went right back to the same acting out, laughing half the time like it's all a funny game.

I did keep a pretty straight face and even voice most of the time. Beyond that I have no idea what to do.

Please help! I don't even know who to call. I keep worrying something's terribly wrong. Do normal kids do this? How do you get past it?

granolamom

Sat, Jan 24 2015, 8:57 pm

amother wrote:

ok, first of all, your kid is nomal. his testing the limits is a sign of normal development. of course not all kids go through it the same way, but this really sounds like a normal thing to me for a kid his age. so take a deep breath and try to relax.

next, as you are figuring out, the first thing to do is to avoid escalation. you know, like first do no harm. once you can avoid escalation, try to de-escalate the situation, I like to look for a way to give him a way out with saving face. like a distraction or changing the topic altogether. just keep moving on. try to look at this without any emotional lens, as if its not YOU he's hitting or challenging. he's trying to see how to get a rise out of you, show him it doesnt work. I'd focus on that more than the punishment to show him he's wrong. he's only four, punitive measures ime, escalate the problem. but I'm only one mother, I'm sure others will tell you the opposite. however, your experience (at least what you've posted) seems to indicate that your experience is similar to mine. he hurts you, you hurt him back so he hurts you again. yes, it is like a game. negative attention is attention and will increase the behavior. no attention, or lack of rise in you, is so boring and takes the wind out of his sails. makes the game no fun.
also sounds to me like he's exploring his power. so look for ways to give him power. give him chores. give him choices. give him responsibilities.

you still do have a fine loving relationship, he's just testing that. me personally, I prioritize keeping the child's and my own dignity intact. my kids did not turn out to be psychopathic teenagers even though I did not discipline punitively at that age. and we have our relationship intact.

if you want more guidance, I would recommend a parenting course, I personally liked dina friedmans chanoch lnaar, although some people here didnt. I'm sure you can get recommendations. I would stay out of psychologists offices at this point though, no need to pathologize this.

amother

Sat, Jan 24 2015, 9:56 pm

It's good to know I'm not the only one going through this, though I still feel like my entire parenting relationship is going to be destroyed by this Sad

Of course I first tried de-escalating! Nothing worked! The child was not responsive to anything, totally carried away and only set on achieving as much hitting/kicking at possible. I paid as little attention as I could, but I couldn't just ignore when DC was repeatedly hitting and kicking! It was hard enough to hurt, too. I kept a very flat tone of voice but felt I had to respond somehow. Putting in time out and then ignoring did not work either as DC kept coming out and could not be forced to stay in.

What scares me is that the DC seems to not be in control at all. It is not just a game, despite the laughing. DC was crying a lot too (e.g. when punished or held down) but that didn't stop anything. The only way these episodes ended was after DC dissolved into hysterics (for the 5th time) and instead of coming back with more hitting they came ready for hugs and cuddles. And then wished to pretend nothing happened. Which I also don't know how to respond to - I don't want them to think there are no consequences for the misbehavior, but on the other hand enough love was lost over the last hour or so that I don't want to make it worse...

I don't have time or money for parenting courses. I do read parenting books but they all start from having a certain method from the beginning, what I need is someone to tell me how to get out of this now even if I didn't do everything right in the first place. Sad

the world's best mom

Sat, Jan 24 2015, 11:46 pm

amother wrote:

Examples of minor consequences have been things like not getting dessert (which is not even served at every meal, we have fruit for dessert sometimes on weekdays and cake on Shabbos), you can only do [what you want to do] after you do [what I told you to do], things like that. Rarely I have given time-outs, which are generally cooperated with.

First, I'd like to comment on the fact that not giving him dessert is considered a minor consequence. I noticed thiis sentence immediately, because, let me tell you, when you're 4 years old, losing dessert is major. MAJOR. I have given many time outs, which are not as major. But for a kid to watch his family eat dessert and not be allowed to join them is torture and is only going to make the kid angrier IMO.

Next, my favorite saying comes to mind: "When a child deserves a hug the least, that's when he needs it the most."

In short, I recommend not making a huge deal about his misbehaving because he is probably misbehaving so that you will make a big deal.

Next, instead of providing lots of negative attention when he misbehaves, you should work on giving lots of positive attention when he does the right thing.

I totally recommend the Nurtured Heart approach, as described in Howard Glasser's book, "All Children Flourishing". This approach is based on the assumption that children misbehave to gain attention. Giving lots of praise when they behave and simple time outs- making them count to ten or something- when they do something wrong. Also, as part of this technique, you need to have very clear rules. The children should be told that anytime they accidentally break one of these rules, they will be asked to count to ten to help them reset. Once they've finished, they are ready to behave properly again.

amother

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 12:17 am

Interesting perspective on dessert. Thing is, it has only actually happened once or twice - generally the warning WORKS. DC has never had to sit and watch everyone else get dessert while they don't because 1) there isn't much of everyone else (one other child, too young to really understand what's going on so if dessert is lost then we just skip it altogether) and 2) on Shabbos it's mostly been a matter of going to bed before dessert time. Other days, as I said, not having dessert is a pretty normal occurrence so it's no big skin off DC's nose to not have dessert when they anyway probably wouldn't have, and the only thing they're missing out on is some fruit that they've probably been noshing all day anyway - I am very generous with fruit and vegetables. But in any case, that isn't really relevant here because these episodes did not happen anywhere near any dessert time anyway, it's a threat I only use in context - e.g. acting up at mealtime = no dessert.

About the hug saying, I have actually tried giving DC hugs/love at these times and they don't want it. DC fights it, with more kicking and hitting and all. I can only give hugs after it's all over which is after a LOT of struggle and heartache.

This DC gets PLENTY of positive attention. In fact I spent most of today playing with DC, much of it without the younger sib around either, and kept everything very positive. So if I might have worried in the past (even though I generally try to be a positive/attentive parent, one may doubt oneself...), now I am even more certain that this doesn't have to do with a lack of positive attention, love, etc.

I can try reading up on the nurtured heart approach... though I just started reading love and logic... but in any case I don't know if "simple time outs" or whatever are going to be relevant at all since this child appeared to have completely lost their mind and being totally rebellious, doing the opposite of anything anyone said, did not cooperate with sitting on their bed to calm down, I dunno how I would get DC to count to ten in this kind of mood. I bet if I read the book it will be about how to establish the right kind of loving structured relationship since birth or something, when what I need is a way to break a bad pattern that is already happening!

amother

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 12:35 am

Maybe I'll try it. Though like I said I did just start reading another book recommended by a different member here on a different thread about DC behavior issues... sigh.

But until I get to reading it, what would it have you do when a child is hitting and kicking and WON'T STOP? I feel like I need to DO something to get it to stop! But the child is not responsive to any attempts - I tried slightly different approaches each time... no difference. Tried looking DC in the eye and calmly reminding that hitting is not allowed, DC seemed to look right THROUGH me and promptly applied another harder smack. Tried what I thought would be calming/grounding hugs/massage, got hit and kicked. Tried time out as calming not punitive - we do not usually do punitive time outs, it worked when DC was a toddler but since then we have moved on - but DC was too wound up to participate. Tried ignoring, DC attacked. Tried leaving the room and closing the door, DC beat it down - literally! And this is a child who has never been violent before! Has had other behavior issues but never anything remotely like this.

I still wonder if it has something to do with the strep (on medicine 3 days now, so it should be about gone but maybe not fully) but even so, let's say we don't blame the DC or think it is a real deep-seated problem because maybe it's just from the strep, I still need to figure out how we're all going to survive this! I can't just go on being a punching bag, but all my attempts to stop it have been ineffective and unpleasant, and I simply can't think of any pleasant way to stop it. Even when I held DC down, I did it VERY gently, I was applying almost no pressure just basically put my hands around DC but very gently, DC was HOWLING that it was hurting (and I had warned before, I said if you don't stop this right now then I will have to hold you down. And then afterward when DC was screaming, I said it's up to you, if you sit nicely on your own then I don't have to hold you. Of course DC heard/responded to none of it.)

amother

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 2:06 am

chani8 wrote:

Physical abuse is not tolerated so when a child loses control, they will be restrained in whatever way necessary. You have to 'go Alpha' and let your child know you are in control. No need to sugar coat anything. "Control yourself or I will control you." Every.single.time.

That said, I've only seen that kind of anger, from both of my boys, the incidents being years apart, when they were being molested.

OP here. I actually thought of that and tried to question DC on a couple of occasions (vaguely - just asking if anyone hurt them or did anything not nice or anything they didn't like, and assuring DC that it is definitely safe to tell me) and DC didn't come up with anything. On one occasion I did get an answer but it was right after one of these episodes and seemed very much like DC saw it as a possible "way out" of being held accountable for the behavior - DC is very smart and had this sly look on the face while answering, and even then all they said was that another child in DC class hurt DC, today in Shabbos group, never before, never in school, and when I asked how they hurt DC the answer was "the same like I just did to you" (hitting, kicking, etc) and yet none of the morahs or other kids saw Rolling Eyes

There was also some inconsistency in the story, I think with regard to when this happened. In response to DC I tried to be very validating and empathetic but frankly I don't believe it. So I don't know what to think, maybe there could be something else going on that DC isn't telling? DC tends to tell things, including things from school that the teacher says are unlikely and possibly DC is misperceiving or overdramatizing or something.

But anyway I am very uncomfortable with the idea of physical control. I know I personally have a very intense aversion to it, it triggers MAJOR fight-or-flight reaction in me, and DC seems to be the same way - it seems to be just an inborn resistance to being physically controlled or manipulated. Which to me seems normal enough. I HATE to do it and I feel it is counterproductive because as much as DCs behavior is already waaaay over the line, physical control escalates it even more - more so than even a potch would. I did deliver a potch the first time this happened but even at the time the irony was very clear to me how totally stupid it is to use a potch to teach a child not to hit. But if I had to I would explain that there is a difference between a child hitting a parent out of naughtiness, and a parent hitting to punish a child because they need to learn not to do bad things. DC is smart enough to understand that when not in this crazy state. However I still don't believe that is the right thing to do at all, and now that I did it once in desperation and saw how little effect it had I am even less inclined to do it again. Taking away the toy did not stop the incident but at least seemed to have some effect, and the effect will be more lasting I hope because when DC asks for the toy back it will be a reminder of what happened and not to do it again. Don't know if it'll work, though, because I don't know if DC has enough control at these times to remember and also DC is totally the type of kid to go "OK so I'll play with something else" and I can't exactly hide ALL the toys... Confused

chani8

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 2:47 am

Certainly, having to restrain a child who is violent is upsetting. The whole scene is very upsetting. It certainly doesn't resolve the issue or teach anything, it just protects everyone.

My oldest was 3 when he was first molested. Over the years, there were so many incidents, with older boys in the school molesting the little boys. It included the 'pull down your pants' thing and 'show me yours, I'll show you mine." It's very confusing to little boys who look up to and want to be accepted by the bigger boys.

What I'm trying to say is, you are asking the wrong questions. Nobody is hurting him. They're manipulating him, and they're doing not-tznius stuff that your son knows is wrong, making it all seem 'fun' or 'funny', but which upsets your son on many levels. Perhaps try reading our little pamphlet that my children wrote when we were charedi.

This is a free printable booklet. Short and very clear.

http://www.shomrimyeladim.com/......html

amother

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 3:05 am

Thanks for the link. I love it.
I did ask in more general terms, after dc said nobody hurt them I also asked if anyone did anything not nice or that made dc feel uncomfortable or upset. I have not discussed abuse overtly with dc but dc does know about tznius, privacy, etc. I have also discussed saying no, telling mommy, etc. Though with these things you still never know if they will actually be able to follow through... Also dc is just about never unsupervised. After all dc is only 4 years old, the only place they are ever alone is inside the bathroom (and even then only in school, elsewhere dc still requests "help") and the school has a separate bathroom for the preschoolers too. I just can't imagine how or where anything could have happened, on top of dc saying nothing has happened (and even when looking for attention the best they could come up with was that a classmate hit them, which is normal enough...) of course I worry anyway because it's what we parents do but at the end of the day I don't think there's reason to believe this is the cause of the current behavior. Especially since the kid did have strep so why not blame that in case it gets better soon. I guess if it doesn't get better I have a bigger problem but I'm holding onto hope before I really lose my mind :-(

the world's best mom

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 9:19 am

amother wrote:

And while we're on the subject, any idea what the key differences might be between "All Children Flourishing" and "Transforming the Difficult Child" by the same author? Only one has "look inside" on Amazon.

He first wrote "Transforming the Difficult Child", which was about using his approach for children who have major behavior problems. Then he realized that his approach would be beneficial to all children, so he wrote his second book about how to use it for everyone.

His opinion on what to do when your kid is hitting would be to have him count and look away while he does. Then, when he's finished counting, compliment him on how proud you are that he counted so nicely. However, having an extremely difficult child myself, I don't find that to be so effective. Instead, if he won't count, I either withhold privileges or put him in timeout until he counts.

granolamom

Sun, Jan 25 2015, 9:49 am

amother wrote:

from my perspective (I've been through this many times with my kids and my perspective has changed drastically from when my oldest was going through this to when my youngest was - a decade and a handful of kids later) you do not need to make it stop. you need to address the underlying issue, if you think about misbehavior as a (maladaptive perhaps) way of communication, you will see that spending tons of emotional energy to 'make him stop' will not bring you to the place you want to go.
maybe removing yourself from the room to let him know that you will not allow yourself to be hurt (note I did not say you will not allow him to hurt you, the focus is on controlling your choices, not his) and waiting till his tantrum blows over would be useful. your panic about deep-seated problems will not convey your authority to him (no judgements here, I totally understand your panic). he very well may be out of control, he needs you to be a rock, solid and unshakable. telling him to stop, ime, wont help. I might try asking if he wants me to help him feel better, or telling him that when he's done he can bring you a book to read to him or whatever calm activity is usually interesting to him. bake a cake, whatever.

telling him what is not allowed, telling him there will be no dessert, gently holding him against his will, etc are all commonly suggested tips that never worked for my kids. those things all reiterate to the child "I am bigger, I control the food, I control everything and you must do what I say" and when a kid is testing his limits and exploring his own power, well you can see how thats a recipe for a very unpleasant afternoon.

maybe he needs to learn how to control his outbursts, but that is something best taught during calm moments. give him language to express displeasure with you, give him language to express anger, give him language to express feeling out of sorts for no reason at all. let him know that these are normal feelings and you are there to help him through it. of course, he is still very young and all this has to be done in an age appropriate way, which oftentimes means showing rather than telling.
so what I'm saying is let him know you are on his side. dina friedman gave an example of two people tugging on a rope. when one person lets go, the other has nothing to pull. or as they say 'it takes two to tango'.

and one more thing, if he had strep he probably wasnt feeling well. cut him some slack. I sometimes act in ways I later regret when I'm not feeling well too.

amother

Mon, Jan 26 2015, 9:47 pm

***SOB*** this is still going on and I'm losing it!!!!

I am thinking the original outbursts started because of the strep but at this point seems to have taken on a life of its own. Like DC started doing this because out of control and "possessed" if you will, but now that DC has seen that hitting/kicking seems to be an option to which the parents have no idea how to respond, it has turned into a power play. DC now seems to feel that they no longer need to bother listening if they don't want to and if parents begin to talk consequences they can just start hitting and kicking and the whole thing spins out of control. Now DC no longer seems totally out of their mind like the first two times (which is why I suspected due to illness, they really did not seem to be themself) but rather seems like an obnoxiously misbehaving out of control undisciplined child.

I feel like DC needs a lot of love right now but I'm not sure how to give it. When things are going well I have been heaping on the positives as much as I can, praising everything DC does right (which is a lot! In general DC's nature has always been very sweet! But now we are having these confrontational meltdowns once or twice a day, and just about every bedtime, which is sad because we had this great bedtime routine that took a while to perfect but has been working well for a long time and is now a disaster, it included built-in motivation/consequence which is now completely not working) giving extra special time, giving DC almost everything they ask for that is reasonable and asked for nicely (and giving a chance to correct if asked not so nicely but not terribly) including things that I might previously have declined for no special reason (things like their preferred snack/dinner, games/activities that get messy...) I'm trying so hard to balance out this deep negative rut with positive loving interactions, yet the negative rut seems to be so overpowering! It feels like it's destroying our entire family's life! Dh and I don't see eye-to-eye on this either, though neither of us quite has any clue what to do, so it's just really stressful for us. I also hate that this keeps happening at bedtime because instead of going to sleep with the day ending off with a loving feeling, DC gets to sleep in this negative state and usually alone - what am I supposed to do, respond to "Come lay with me" from a child who just persistently beat me up and rebelled against everything I said?! a couple of times if there was sufficient calming down/apologizing I actually did try to "make nice" at bedtime but now that it's no longer an out-of-mind meltdown but a total full-on rebellion I am afraid that would send mixed messages. I want DC to know they are loved but I do not want them to think that they can defy, contradict, disobey, scream, kick, and hit, and then turn around and demand the full loving bedtime attention.

I just don't know what to do anymore, and I don't even know whom to ask, I don't have any parenting mentor or wise older sister/mother/grandmother or anything. All these approaches from what I've read so far about nurtured heart and love and logic and all, they all seem nice in theory but I can't figure out how to get out of this rut to make anything happen! I try to be positive and build up DC all day but then it all comes down! In the love and logic book I've gotten as far as you're supposed to give DC lots of choices to build up their feeling of control, but it's not working, frankly even my very good-natured toddler is not going for it - I say "Would you like to take off your shoes first or your shirt first?" and DC goes "I don't want to!" and so on. SMH. I give up. I feel like parenting was the wrong career for me... nothing is working Sad