S/O vaccines, autism, "catching" autism,etc

mille

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 1:12 pm

amother wrote:

OP here:
Your second paragraph is kind of what I was talking about in my original post. My son is not really even on the spectrum he has what I like to call "autistic tendencies" The doctor did mention to me that she feels 1/3 of people walking around have "autism" like she clarified 90% of them would never be diagnosed as such but that we ALL have "autistic tendencies". If we use the treatments for autism to help those with just tendencies we can make a big difference. Meaning once we created a treatment plan for my son as though he had autism he changed to a completely different person. Yes, his tendencies are still there, but he functions so much better, our house/family function so much better.

It is a very good point that in general with many issues, we see a "rise" in numbers but it may not be a rise but a difference in thought. For example, there were probably as many gay people as there are now, but now its "okay" to be open about it where it was a crime about 60 years ago.

This is just wild speculation from someone in an adjacent field (but not related to autism treatment or anything), but I speculate that this is one reason why some autism interventions work really really well for some kids and don't work at all for others -- it's a similar expression of a different disorder that is under one umbrella. I have a family member who does ABA therapy, and some kids respond really well and it's a "miracle cure" for them. Others have been in ABA for years and still cannot speak or follow simple instructions. I wonder if it has to do with the expression of a different gene. I'm not sure, but there is a lot of research into autism, it's a very big field right now! Hopefully in our lifetime, we will understand more about the presentation of this spectrum of disorders.

Very good point on gay people, or anything else we understand more now. My mom (who is a total science skeptic, actually) thinks that we've always had devastating food allergies. It's just that, back before we knew what a peanut allergy was, a kid would eat a peanut and then just die from it and we would think he choked to death or something else happened. We wouldn't understand that the peanut caused it. And with communities only consuming a small range of dietary options, it's entirely possible that someone could live into adulthood never encountering a food that they are allergic to. That's just my mom's unscientific ranting, but it's curiously familiar, right?

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 1:17 pm

OP: Why would you assume that the best poll to give would be about the flu shot or not? Flu is only one of many illnesses that go around in the winter. A better question in my mind would be to poll handwashing and hygenic habits. Maybe dietary and vitamin supplementation differences. Because that would give a better picture overall of sickness, not just the flu. (I guess your hypothetical poll could be multi-tiered and have that in it as well Wink

)

I have not seen a difference in school days missed based on the flu vaccine, anecdotally. My kids missed the same amount of school or less as their peers who got the flu vaccine.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 1:20 pm

mille wrote:

I've been saying this for a while, but I might be labeled as a quack.

I do not believe vaccines cause autism but I do believe autistic-like symptoms can be a side effect of them.
(Just like flu-like symptoms can be a side effect of the flu vaccine.)

amother

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 1:28 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

)

I have not seen a difference in school days missed based on the flu vaccine, anecdotally. My kids missed the same amount of school or less as their peers who got the flu vaccine.

OP here:
I said that would be a HORRIBLE study but its the only definite information one can get. You cant measure how well someone washes their hands or how often they used purel or how often as a child they were exposed to cold/flu etc.

Thank G-d Thank G-d Thank G-d......my kids have never gotten the flu (4 kids ranging from 9 months to 11.5yrs). My entire carpool was out for 1-2 weeks of school this year with the flu/virus and my kids have not been sick. The only person in the house that has suffered flu for the last 12 years of marriage is my dh once and me once. What was amazing when I was sick, it was for 36 hours and I worked from home during it, which can explain how mild of a flu it was. (my non-scientific reason for this, I have an advocate, my mother, near G-d telling Him to keep us healthy and happy)

amother

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 1:48 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I wish I knew more, but I don't. I'm not militant either way. I just like learning and seeing many facets to the world, with no white and black answers.

Anyway, how Wakefield got his samples is besides the point.

I don't really understand this so much, but apparently, in the case of MTHFR at least, there is a limitation to the ability to process certain things (toxins?) due to a problem in recycling BH4. (I am just reading up on this now, never heard of it before.) Apparently aluminum also hampers BH4, and aluminum is a common adjuvant in vaccines. It seems that treatment plans with BH4 have shown some success in treating children with ASD symptoms, but there isn't a lot of studies on it yet. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....8599/

I have no idea if someone is going to label this as quack science or not. Nothing crazy jumps out at me when reading that study.

I know you are not militant which I why I thought you could explain to me your hesitancy. Do you think you can? I'm not interested in a debate. I want to understand your point of view.

How and why Wakefield got his samples isn't beside the point. His samples weren't fair. His research was biased. He took money and found what he said he would. If I took blood from my dc and their friends at a birthday party after I accepted tons of money to testify in a courtroom as an expert witness without any oversight and without having to answer to anyone, you would discount my data. Right? I hope so. I would be wrong. IRB approval is needed and many of the kids in his studies were not evaluated by anyone but him. His controls weren't controls.

I'm not an expert in this pathway. But, the MTHFR mutation means the body can't break down folic acid properly since this enzyme isn't working. We ingest folic acid in our diet and that is broken down to 5-methyl-TFH. This is early in the pathway for protein synthesis and DNA methylation. I could see how this could possibly cause autism perhaps by my limited view -I'm not an expert in this. Do you know about Angelman's syndrome? This is what came to mind when I was looking at the enzymatic pathway and substrates.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 3:02 pm

I really don't know more about it, OP. I just started reading about this today.

I know about MTHFR and folic acid, but not that it's only limited to that. I heard about linked with miscarriages several years ago. I heard about it linked to SPD several years ago. I heard about several behavioral issues linked to it. I have no idea what is proven, and what is not. I haven't really researched it, and I have never been tested for it.

But since many genetic mutations affect more than one thing, I don't find it implausible to believe there may be other issues this can cause. There are several MTHFR mutations, so it makes sense to me that there is a possibility that different mutations have alternate issues along with them. It's something to look into, not something I would easily discount. It is worth it for it to be explored, if only to prove or disprove a correlation.

And it goes hand in hand with what amother wrote above about Dr. McBride's theory (GAPS diet, which is the acronym for what amother wrote)....if the adjuvants in vaccines are not properly excreted and cause havoc inside a system, it can lead to autistic-like symptoms.

I have only heard about Angelman's syndrome, but I don't know the inner workings of it.

Chayalle

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 3:38 pm

Interesting thread.

OP, I have a brother who has Aspergers and PDD, on the autistic spectrum. My mother claimed that she saw symptoms from the day he was born. He was her 9th child, and she saw differences. Everyone thought she was being paranoid.

I remember him as the most gorgeous, lovable baby with blonde curls and blue eyes. We didn't notice too many symptoms in the early years, though he was somewhat speech delayed, and he didn't speak clearly (still doesn't). In other areas he is absolutely brilliant, and has a photographic memory (also common with certain spectrum disorders).

Later on he developed certain facial features and behaviors that are more consistent with spectrum disorders.

My mother never believed any of the vaccine/autism links, because she saw symptoms before he was ever vaccinated - she believed in delaying vaccinations for at least a year.

amother

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 3:43 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Sorry, I think I didn't clarify myself too well. I wasn't asking you to explain a link between a mutation and autism. I don't think anyone can fully explain that one. I was asking if you could explain to me why you are vaccine hesitant in general. I am trying to understand this hesitancy better. But, I can't unless I understand why they are worried. I need to understand their worries as parents. I was hoping you could help me. What havoc can they cause? What is havoc? I really want to respectfully understand your opinion.

Angelman's is a result of a problem with DNA methylation. I'll just leave it like that.

princessleah

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 3:44 pm

Could somebody please explain what you mean by "autistic-like" symptoms or "autistic tendencies"?
Autism means you have developmental delays in one or more areas. You may also have accompanying behavioral issues, depending on severity, like compulsive behaviors, missing social cues, lack of prosidy in speech, etc.
If someone has ''autism-like symptoms" from a vaccine, then a) shouldn't they go away after a while just like the flu-like symptoms, and b) what are these symptoms you're talking about? Speech regresses? Gross motor skills regress? Or do not develop further?

chavs

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 4:07 pm

I have two children on the spectrum, one was mainly bottle fed and one was breastfed almost exclusively for 1 year, she tried a bit of solids slightly earlier then one and was not impressed. She was breastfed until she was 3.5.
They both had their vaccinations, somewhat delayed and split up. I am 100 % happy that the vaccines didnt cause them autism, I am also 100 % certain that it has nothing to do with gut flora as my daughter was never fed stuff that compromises the gut flora and infact was given lots to support it. My son did have formula but if that caused autism then boy would there be a lot of spectrum folk around!
I have a 5 month old boy and he has had his vaccinations and will have the mmr when the time comes. Whats mmore is that I am not gonna split it up this time or delay it as I am around a lot of ppl that dont vaccinate and to me the illnesses that we vaccinate against are a lot scarier then asd is.
I'm not gonna bother writing how beautiful, sweet and wonderful my kids are in detail or how I wish there were more ppl like them in the world or how indeed without spectrum folk many discoveries wouldnt have been made.
I am however gonna say that no one knows what causes autism. It has not been proven. What has been proven is how mighty scary measles, polio and the like has been or can be.
As it is I am tired of being worried when I take my son (the 5 month old) out that other ppl who could vaccinate havent and might land my son up in the hospital because they are scared of 'catching autism' which wont happen because of vaccines and isnt a death sentence.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 4:37 pm

OP, there is no way I can write up what it is that makes me cautious. I believe it is my duty as a parent, especially one who has seen reactions in her kids, to make the best decisions for my kids. This is why I am neither pro or anti vax, and which is why none of my kids have the same vaccine schedule. I don't want to get into it any more than that, because it's an individual thing, and I don't have a shitta, not for my family as a whole, and certainly not for the rest of the world.