S/o And the vax discussion cont. - ultra orthodox dont vax?

Notsobusy

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 5:24 pm

Maya, are you saying that's the reason why a few chassidim don't vax, or are you saying that most chassidim don't vax? I'm just trying to understand why some people seem to think that most ultra-orthodox don't vax, is there any truth to that?

Notsobusy

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 5:27 pm

amother wrote:

Maya have you considered the prospective that the natural field is being so picked up on because it actually works and is without side effects? I don't know why you have to make people sound like such idiots.

I'm just trying to understand why you think people would pick on it because it works and is without side effects. If anything, most people would run to join the natural field, if that was true.

Maya

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 6:20 pm

glutenless wrote:

No, I don't think it's true that most Chassidim don't vax. A lot of them are into natural and holistic healing, but I think most vaccinate.

I only know personally two mothers who are very anti-vax, but they are both the type of personality who need to have a cause they can talk about constantly and promote passionately. Seems like they picked this for now.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 6:23 pm

According to the CDC (when discussing the outbreak of measles in the frum community), the majority of the ultra-orthodox community does vaccinate (which is why, they said, the outbreak died out pretty quickly and was contained well).

amother

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 6:32 pm

In williamsburg, those who don't vaccinate are a tiny minority. I don't have numbers, but the schools require immunization records, as do the local pediatricians AFAIK. The majority certainly complies. Most parents defer to their doctors judgement and experience.

amother

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 6:40 pm

I used to live in a very chassidish neighborhood, and one of my neighbors was saying she can't get medicade and wic because she doesn't vax. so if that's true then most of them probably do vax because the majority are on medicade and wic.

amother

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 6:43 pm

Maya wrote:

No, I don't think it's true that most Chassidim don't vax. A lot of them are into natural and holistic healing, but I think most vaccinate.
I only know personally two mothers who are very anti-vax, but they are both the type of personality who need to have a cause they can talk about constantly and promote passionately. Seems like they picked this for now.

No they are anti-vax because it's from the few things in their lives that they have control over, because it's not a religious matter.

Notsobusy

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 7:45 pm

Thanks Maya and Hashem_Yaazor, that's what I thought. I just don't understand why anyone thinks that most ultra-orthodox don't vax, what are they basing that on?

amother

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 8:13 pm

Where did you come across this assumption?

southernbubby

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 8:27 pm

If Maya were up for adoption, I would get first dibs. I wish that she would make friends with my daughter who writes books.

Natural medicine may have gained ground in the frum community about 35 to 40 years ago when a number of BTs followed Meir Abbusera (OBM) into frumkeit. He had introduced them to macrobiotics in the 70's and then when he became frum he incorporated macrobiotics into frumkeit. Some of these theories made sense; sugar and white flour was unhealthy, natural childbirth was, in some cases, healthy, breastfeeding was generally healthy, brown rice was nutritious, antibiotics were overused, etc. Eventually, many people were drawn into numerous multi-level marketing health schemes that were widely believed to be the secret cure that your doctor didn't want you to have because then you would stop coming to him. Every year a new remedy would be the rage and the whole community became believers in products such as blue green algae. People who couldn't afford groceries were paying huge sums to these scams to save their health from the threat of pesticide laced food and air pollution.
Eventually there were rabbonim who spoke up about multi-level marketing and that punctured a hole into much of the alternative movement but there are still those healers out there who have figured out a way to convince people that they are sick and need something out of the ordinary to heal them.

amother

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 8:48 pm

I think the public nursery in private schools (or something like that) also require strict vaxing or the schools face steep fines. I would think that would also cause many to vax.

mille

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 8:56 pm

amother wrote:

Where did you come across this assumption?

I can't find it now, but there was an article maybe a month ago that was talking about the very low vaccination rates at some of the jewish schools in brooklyn (and maybe other ultra orthodox areas?). Possibly in part due to that article and similar articles? There was also one recently about schools in LA with low vaccination rates, but I believe those schools ran the gamut of religiosity and wasn't only right wing orthodox.

southernbubby

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:01 pm

crazy thing is, when a person lives in an urban area, and crowds into the subway train at rush hour, do they honestly think that nothing will happen to them if they do nothing to protect themselves from contagious diseases?

Maya

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:02 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Perhaps if they would actually think... Smile

Frenchfry

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:08 pm

I may be totally wrong about this, but I seem to believe being once told that many Lubavitchers don't vax and that's why when there was a mumps outbreak a few years back, it started and spread quickly in crown heights.

Any truth to this, or is it just a rumor?

southernbubby

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:12 pm

Maya wrote:

Perhaps if they would actually think... Smile

Exactly. There should be some sort of organization for the unvaccinated similar to footsteps so that kids who want to leave the anti-vax derech can be helped to get vaccinated. Maybe judges could rule that children do not need parental consent to receive vaccines and these kids would be allowed to tell a teacher or school social worker to arrange this medical care for them. Will the health department give vaccines to kids under 18 without consent of the parents?

southernbubby

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:15 pm

Frenchfry wrote:

I am a Lubavitcher and the situation with Lubavitch is that it is a worldwide movement with the emphasis on movement. People are constantly coming and going from CH to and from various parts of the world. I am not sure if vaccines are available everywhere so it is possible that some people don't have access to normal doctors but the schools in Lubavitch have been known to kick out non-vaccinated kids.

Notsobusy

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:49 pm

amother wrote:

Where did you come across this assumption?

On the following thread today "And the vax discussion continues - read and discuss" in the op it states

Quote:

I naively assumed Jews (outside of the ultra-Orthodox) always vaccinate for lots of reasons–we are a religion that values life after all.

At least one of the posters there seems to agree with that sentiment.

A few days ago on this thread "Father Asks School To Bar Unvaccinated Children for son" a poster posting under amother wrote

Quote:

I often wonder what proportion of the anti vax frum cohort had a decent secular and science education. It often seems that the anti vax brigade is loudest in the charedi communities who are strongly against education so don't actually understand the science or math behind much of modern medicine.

It would be interesting to see a statistical analysis in the frum world between science education and vaccination status.

Because it seems to me that many who are anti are those who believe in the type of magical thinking encouraged in modern charediville, such that segulas are widespread and believed to be more powerful than science, that money falls from the sky with no financial planning and minimal histadlus and that the terrible disasters that befall klal yisroel correlate directly with the average sheital length.

Anti rationalist.

Which begs the question, why do any of you have health insurance, or seek orthodox medical assistance for anything? If you don't believe in science, or the statistical basis of medical research, or germ theory, and believe that garlic and castor oil will cure all ills, at least you should be consistent and not seek to change Hashem's will when he makes you sick.

If Hashem gave you a perfect body and you don't wish to ever contaminate it, why would you ever take any medicine, or ever see a doctor about anything, it is surely just Hashem's decree and can only be addressed or changed by davening or doing more mitzvot?

You really should have more emunah and stop paying health insurance, as it is probably demonstrating a serious lack of emunah in Hashem that He will protect you from all illness, and reject all healthcare completely.

When I saw the first post I figured that she is one poster who has an anti chareidi bias. But, seeing the second post today and seeing one person seemed to agree, and nobody disagreed, I was wondering if other people also thought that ultra-orthodox don't vax, or is it just some misinformed people who think so. Thank goodness it seems like there are just a few uniformed, but I'm still wondering why they think that ultra-orthodox don't vax. As long as it's just a few people, I guess who really cares.

Frenchfry

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:52 pm

Thanks for clarifying. I thought it was some sort of medical shittah, like not taking routine ultrasounds. (Or is that also a misconception of mine?)

Notsobusy

Mon, Feb 02 2015, 9:55 pm

Frenchfry wrote:

Thanks for clarifying. I thought it was some sort of medical shittah, like not taking routine ultrasounds. (Or is that also a misconception of mine?)

As far as I know, that is also a misconception. Everyone I know takes routine ultrasounds.