Does anybody here live a frum lifestyle but not believe...

yenny

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 9:20 pm

I'm sure that as many pple post that they have this feeling there must be hundreds more out there with such feelings too. I don't think I dint believe but I wanted to be stronger in my belief so I started listening to some speeches, not shiurim. They Were Really Basic Like For Bts.I realized that the reg BY system doesn't cover basics bc they assume we know and believe since we're little. It was so amazing hearing things for the first time that should have been like ABC in yiddishkeit.

yogabird

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 9:33 pm

amother wrote:

I have issues with creation. I value Torah, I value science as well. Now the scientists say that the world has always been here, maybe there was no big-bang. Fascinating but what does it mean?

Maybe that scientists are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to come up with the theory that least necessitates the existence of a creator?

It's like so deja vu. This is what enlightened thinkers wishing to throw off the shackles of christianity and the church said centuries ago until it was disproven by background radiation which supposedly proved the big bang theory, which was the preferred theory until they realized that there had to be something around before the big bang...

amother

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 9:51 pm

yogabird wrote:

The Atlantic had an article a few months ago titled "why God will not die". The author basically expands on this premise, that the more science discovers the more we see that we don't know. Believing in science is acknowledged today by many thinkers as just as much a belief as religion, another way to make sense of the temporary nature of our existence and a way to find meaning in the vast universe.

(Of course, the author left religion when he was young, but his point is basically, hey religion is not stupid, and scientists may be the biggest blind believers of all. We should acknowledge the value religion provides in answering existential questions in a meaningful way to many, even if for a particular atheist it doesn't.)

I was especially struck by his statement that most people do not understand all that is understood by science today, they rely on the understanding of other greater minds who do. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

yogabird

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 9:54 pm

amother wrote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/mag.....2231/

Posting here so I remember to read when I have a chance Wink

amother

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 10:05 pm

yogabird wrote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/12/why-god-will-not-die/382231/

Posting here so I remember to read when I have a chance Wink

. Thanks.

Be warned, he is a pluralist... IOW he won't convince you of Judaism's truth, just the value of religion in general.

But I don't need him for that... I just liked seeing how the academic elite is softening its attitude towards religion in general and acknowledging their own intellectual limitations.

Reb Nachman explains how getting an answer to a question only reveals the depths of the question on a higher level, and getting the next level answer brings the question up again on a higher level still, and on and on beyond human comprehension...

There is a leap of faith required at even the highest level of understanding. And that's where emunah comes in, for even the deepest religious thinkers and the biggest gedolim.

yogabird

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 10:09 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks for posting this. Wish you weren't amother but totally get why you are... People think faith is irrational, but it's really supra-rational.

gp2.0

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 11:04 pm

yogabird wrote:

Well there is one theory that nicely ties together scientific theory and Torah. Midrash in Sefer Bereishis says that Hashem created and destroyed many worlds before creating this one. One scientific explanation for the formation of our universe is that it was formed by the energy emitted by another universe's collapse.

As for the original OP's question, I think there is less value in answers than there are in questions. Meaning, I think it's OK to keep asking questions, as long as they are coming from a good place, a moral place. Expansion of knowledge is a wonderful thing. By deciding that you've found "the" answer, you've reached a dead end to knowledge. Why would anyone want that? That's why people learned in both science and Torah keep asking questions, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you can accept that answers generally lead to more questions.

gp2.0

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 11:07 pm

yogabird wrote:

...and prove it. And I don't see how they can do it with the tools that they have availabe-reality as it exists now.

Do you really have such a good understanding of quantum mechanics to make such a statement?

I know that I personally have no idea of the current models and calculations that are being worked with, and if I did see them I certainly wouldn't understand them.

yogabird

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 11:13 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

I was just saying that I don't understand at all how people (science) thinks it can *prove* anything that happened so long ago.

I get that it's based on complex calculations, but wouldn't that still be extrapolation at best?

amother

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 11:15 pm

Yes, questions are good.

But the motivation behind the questions will determine whether the answer will be found satisfactory or rejected. Does the person want to believe and is searching to solve their confusion, or is the person already determined that the truth is not in the Torah and nothing will dissuade him?

Because there is no one answer, as you said. If there were it wouldn't be a choice, there'd be no free will in this area.

So the questioner needs to accept either that
A - there are some Divine truths that we humans are not privy to, and can only learn about and ask about as far as a finite human being can
or that
B - there is some ultimate scientific truth that is still in the process of being discovered, and is understood only in bits and pieces by various brilliant minds. (No single person has a complete understanding of all branches of all sciences, including all the latest research and discoveries, so we rely on others' understanding of their areas of expertise and accept their conclusions).

Personally, I pick A. I believe ultimately science will prove that Hashem is, was, and will be.

That may be the day that "all the world will know Hashem".

yogabird

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 11:19 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Which scientific theory?

I've heard of this midrash used to explain the age of the universe (even though most meforshim,including the Arizal, whose word is considered final on these matters, agree that these were spiritual worlds, not physical), so not really sure what you mean about the energy, but wouldn't a universe's collapse suck up energy as opposed to emit energy?

gp2.0

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 11:36 pm

yogabird wrote:

It's one theory of several.

http://mentalfloss.com/sites/d.....e.png

What would you say a spiritual world is made of? I would assume it's made of energy rather than of mass. Which also ties into scientific theories.

https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/se.....d.htm

gp2.0

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 11:42 pm

yogabird wrote:

Yes, it's extrapolation, but considering that scientists in pretty much every field have made predictions using calculations and models and then proved those calculations again and again (the info is out there if you look for it) it follows that their calculations are generally reliable. There is lots of rigorous testing and proving before a theory is accepted. And even then, that doesn't mean that it's a "closed case" - even an accepted theory can have some unresolved aspects that are open to change to anyone who can prove them.

yogabird

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 11:51 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Spiritual worlds aren't "made" of anything. Energy is a pretty good metaphor for spirituality, but still not it.

I can see how the "inflate-collapse-inflate-collapse" model can be a good parallel for understanding this midrash, even though the words "create" and "destroy" imply conscious acts, while science makes it sound like this was some kind of involuntary reflex.

(I see you're still going with the big bang theory. I though that was going out of style fast?)

yogabird

Sat, Feb 14 2015, 11:55 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

The bolded is so true and that makes me wonder why so many theories are accepted as fact when even science itself barely makes that claim.

Just because a prediction turns out to be true doesn't mean that extrapolation into the distant past will be true as well. Who know if conditions were the same back then, and if the same laws and logic applied under those conditions?

gp2.0

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 12:01 am

yogabird wrote:

Everything is "made" of something or else it wouldn't exist.

Out of style? Lol. As far as I know, no one has yet disproved the big bang theory. Some scientists are just beginning research into a new theory (which I linked upthread) but it has a long way to go, and they probably just announced their intentions to get funding.

yogabird

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 12:05 am

gp2.0 wrote:

Spirituality is brought into existence by Hashem's thoughts. Spiritual energy is not physical energy.

Okay. So we go with the theory du jour until it's disproven?