Does anybody here live a frum lifestyle but not believe...

BlueRose52

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 8:12 pm

Another area of intellectual inquiry that many people have difficulty with are ideas where certain things are taught as core tenets of Judaism (in certain circles), but which simply don't seem right to them. These could be different ideas depending on what community one comes from, but I have heard people express difficulty believing that G-d wants people to learn all the time, or that women should not take leadership roles, or that halacha is unchangeable to modern times, or that it's right to shun general studies and the wider participation in society. Of course, depending on the community one comes from, some might not believe this to be the right derech, but if one comes from a community where this is taught as the right way to be a good torah Jew, grappling with these issues will also fall under the category of intellectual difficulties.

yogabird

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 10:48 pm

dimyona wrote:

If we're going with the oldest belief system (not that science is a belief system), then paganism wins.

How so??

MagentaYenta

Sun, Feb 15 2015, 11:00 pm

yogabird wrote:

How so??

Artifacts found at Gobekli Tepe are dated at about 12,000 years. It is believed to be the oldest pagan site found. Far older than Stonehenge.

chani8

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 1:58 am

marina wrote:

no. Because I respect my husband and it's important to him. I long ago stopped caring about what rabbis say.

I wouldn't do it for a rabbi either. I'm not even sure I'd keep TH just to please my DH. I do it because G-d said that is what He wants from me. It's all right there in the Torah. Since it was His command, I'm in. I do what He asked because I want to please Him.

You answered that the reason you do the mitzvos according to rabbinical halacha despite not caring what the rabbonim said, is out of respect for your DH.

I'm still asking myself why I keep rabbinical halacha. I think it's because it's brilliant from an intellectual POV. Until you get into the halachos that remain to this day, even when they so obviously violate basic human rights.

chani8

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 2:04 am

dimyona wrote:

If we're going with the oldest belief system (not that science is a belief system), then paganism wins.

Unless you believe that Adam and Chava interacted with G-d at Creation. But that would be using our belief system (mesorah) to validate that a belief in G-d came first, while archaeologists rely on pagan paraphernalia to prove their shitta.

imasoftov

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 6:06 am

chani8 wrote:

Circular reasoning is not validation.

imaima

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 7:55 am

amother wrote:

Belief in Hashem wouldn't be a choice.

If something can be proven in black and white beyond a shadow of a doubt (which science hasn't so far), it's not a choice to believe it.

ETA: let me rephrase that. If something can be proven beyond etc, it wouldn't be a nisayon to believe. It would still be a nisayon to be true to that belief, ie keep the 613 mitzvos, but God's existence would be a matter of fact, not belief.

Adam and Chava didn't question God's existence. Their free will was about eating forbidden fruit...

Their act of rebellion caused confusion about everything else.

Come on.
It's been proven black and white that smoking tabacco is bad for you, and people still smoke it. Believing and knowing doesn't cancel yetzer hara.

imaima

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 7:59 am

marina wrote:

The above is just touchy-feely. Judaism is entirely halacha based, it's not a touchy feely religion of God loves me and I love God, although that certainly can be the backdrop. I always reject touchy -feely explanations if they are halachically incompatible because they don't reflect Judaism accurately.

Just as an example of the top of my head- people say that the reason a woman is niddah longer for a girl than a boy is that whole thing about how you are losing more life since the baby girl has more potential for creating life, blah, blah, blah. I totally reject that because halachically niddah is based on only thing- uterine blood. If you give birth and you don't bleed vaginally (or before you bleed vaginally), you are simply not niddah, regardless of whether it's a boy or girl baby.

Off topic: Does anyone hold this boy-girl thing? I think people go whenever they are clean. I learned that people don't do it anymore.

perseverance613

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 9:51 am

Everybody has ups and downs in their emunah, but please don't use science as your cop-out and excuse. Phys.org article that you are quoting is purposefully sensationalist and confusing misinterpretation of a new theory which states the following:

1. The previous theory of Big Bang implied that EXPANSION ("Big Bang") of the universe started with the singularity itself (a single point of infinite mass). In this theory there was no "time" in absence of expansion.

2. This new theory proposes that before the expansion (Big Bang) started, something did exist. After existing for some time, the present expansion started. Essentially it is not saying that Big Bang did not happen, it is saying that something existed BEFORE the Big Bang.

Neither number 1 nor number 2 above contradict sefer Bereshis. However, if a scientist comes up tomorrow with a new theory that will contract Torah, will you let that sway you until the next theory comes along that no longer contradicts Torah?

Whatever your feelings about yiddishkayt and Torah are, don't use science as your excuse. There are plenty more excuses that you can use.

perseverance613

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 10:14 am

You ladies are sad. Stop going with the flow. Statements like "I stopped caring long ago about what the rabbis say."

Who cares what the rabbis say? Think logically about it yourself:

1. Because something exists, a creator exists. Don't listen to bull$#!t atheist arguments - these guys are not intellectually honest with themselves. One of the most prominent atheists Anthony Flew was a leader and a "Rebbe" of atheists for his entire life. At the age of 81 he wrote an article that he was wrong and it is impossible for G-d not to exist. He was immediately shunned by atheists circles and all of his previous atheist accomplishments were denied. Atheism is a religion of fraud.

2. If any religion is true, yiddishkayt is it. No other religion claims a direct revelation of G-d to 2 million people. To fabricate such a claim would be impossible. Every other religion's revelation is to 1 or maximum two people. Basically other religions are bull$#!t for the gullible.

3. A cow is intellectually inferior to human. No matter how much it learns, it will not understand that surgery is good for it. A human is intellectually inferior to G-d: no matter how much we learn, we will never understand how tragedy could be justified. The limitation of our intellect does not prove or disprove a being with higher intellect than ours.

4. If G-d gave us mitzvos and a system to follow (Torah shebiksav and shebaalpe), it means it is good for us even when we don't understand how lighting shabbos candles makes any difference in the world.

5. The fact that majority of the "frum velt" are wrong should not affect us. Our religion is not about being the same as everyone else. As hard as it is, just ignore the social pressure to conform, and just do what you believe in.

We came to associate our religion with what everyone else in our community does. Guess what? The majority if very often wrong. Just do the right things, instill the right values in your children and live a happy life. No need to stress out about keeping up with the Johnsons spiritually or materialistically. Very often their level is just a show. G-d is the only one who knows the real value of our mitzvos.

amother

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 10:22 am

For some people, knowledge of science just enhances faith. Avoid fearing the results and explore them. Hashem created science, after all.

Also keep in mind that in the past, many Jewish philosophers came out with great ideas that differ from the "7 days of creation" and other narratives, opening a more inclusive and open minded interpretation of Torah teachings.

Spinoza developed what today is called Pantheism, and so on.

If you're getting nervous or anxious about your current belief system, I'd say you need to upgrade your source of information.

I do not believe in the literal description of Bereishit, instead, I think it's the way things needed to be explained for that generation... if today we have more knowledge of the world/Universe we live in, the Bereishit narrative gain a new format. 7 days could be 7 periods, 7 stages, or maybe the number 7 was used only as a symbol for something greater...

Sometimes taking a little personality test helps to find out how you are likely to interpret spirituality. (http://www.16personalities.com/free-personality-test -- mine is INFJ)

A rational person might find it easier to follow certain patterns of belief while an intuitive person will struggle with it. And vice versa. There's no way 1 single belief will satisfy every mind, because we're all unique...

Don't struggle with your faith, think on evolving it into something that will bring happiness to your mind and soul. As you might evolve, all contradictions and conflicts might start to fade.

My emunah is renewed - in a positive way - every time I read Scientific American. Really. I love documentaries/books/magazines that discuss the beginnings of Universe, life on Earth, evolution, possibilities of quantum physics... each person has their own way to develop their faith, hope you'll find yours and enjoy great happiness through it.

Good luck.

amother

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 10:31 am

imaima wrote:

Off topic: Does anyone hold this boy-girl thing? I think people go whenever they are clean. I learned that people don't do it anymore.

Pretty sure it's done, but it's mostly theoretical. Who bleeds for less than a week postpartum? The soonest you could go with a boy is 12 days, soonest with a girl is 14.
Even with a 5-week miscarriage it was over 3 weeks before I was able to go to mikva.

imasoftov

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 10:50 am

perseverance613 wrote:

I think that the frum community would react similarly if one of its actual rebbes (at any age) wrote an article saying that God doesn't exist. But I don't think either the rebbe's recantation or the community reaction would lead to the conclusion that our religion was fraudulent.

amother

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:00 am

imasoftov wrote:

I agree.

Maybe the true source of conflict is not based in G'ds existence, but in the fact that most of us always interpreted him in the wrong way.

Still a lot to be learned on that.

Let us keep going! Koach to every learner!

perseverance613

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:05 am

imasoftov wrote:

The point that illustrates their intellectual dishonesty is that a leader recanted on atheism after a lifetime of leading it.

The fact that he was shunned is besides the point.

yogabird

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:06 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

Artifacts found at Gobekli Tepe are dated at about 12,000 years. It is believed to be the oldest pagan site found. Far older than Stonehenge.

Oh. I thought we all agreed that Adam and Chava were the first humans and they lived a little less than 6000 years ago.

Oops. My bad.

imasoftov

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:12 am

perseverance613 wrote:

The point that illustrates their intellectual dishonesty is that a leader recanted on atheism after a lifetime of leading it.

The fact that he was shunned is besides the point.

No rabbi has ever gone OTD? Also, how would someone else going OTD demonstrate that my beliefs are dishonest?

mille

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:13 am

perseverance613 wrote:

With all due respect, none of these arguments are particularly insightful to a science-minded non-believer. What proof do you have for the statement of "if something exists, a creator exists"? The Torah? It's circular logic. So by this logic, if God exists, something must have created God. What created God? What created God's creator? If we accept that some things may have always existed and transcended time, why couldn't the universe (or the singularity prior to the big bang) be included in this? Why does the universe need a creator? The idea of creation comes from religion exclusively. By the way, atheism is not a religion. By definition, it is the lack of religious beliefs and beliefs in a creator or higher power...

What is your source for "yiddishkeit" being the true religion? Aren't you lucky that out of ~16,000,000 Jews out of ~7,000,000,000 people in the world, you just so happened to be born into the religion that is The One True Religion? What is your proof that it's true? Oh, right. Torah. Circular logic. It would be difficult to fabricate the claim of the revelation (this argument coming on the tails of previous arguments in this thread about how some events in the Torah are not to be taken literally, and some numbers mentioned e.g. the 600,000 mentioned are not to be taken literally...). It would also be difficult to fabricate the claim that a dead person literally rose from the dead and was alive again, in front of witnesses, three days after death, wouldn't it? But another religion did just that, one that has a much bigger following than Christianity (over 1 billion). This doesn't follow, as none of us were there for the revelation. All we have to go by is an account supposedly written shortly after it happened, directly orated from God himself, the only source of this being the text itself. Just as all religions have -- their own bibles, their own written word, that's all we have to go on for religious events that happened thousands of years ago.

I don't really get why #3 is an argument against science at all, nor that it follows through. As for 4, same thing. If you don't believe in God, you don't believe God gave out the mitzvot, you believe that it is a human construct. So it really doesn't matter the reason. There have also been debates on this forum as to the 'goodness' of the mitzvot. There are plenty of mitzvot that are really not good in some cases. Many agunot would have a bone to pick with a particular halacha. So would many women with halachic infertility. But if it came from God, it must be good, I guess.

I just feel like your post was very insulting. This thread wasn't asking for proof as to why God MUST exist, nor was it even asking for other reasoning. The majority of the posts in the first few pages are from personal experiences without the debating. But your post was very condescending and outright mean. You called people "sad" for not sharing your beliefs. Good for you that you believe everything so solidly and blindly, but it doesn't make anyone "sad' for questioning why things are the way they are, or how differing beliefs can still conform to a belief system.

perseverance613

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:19 am

imasoftov wrote:

No rabbi has ever gone OTD? Also, how would someone else going OTD demonstrate that my beliefs are dishonest?

You got it! No rabbinic leader has denounced validity of Torah! That is correct!

perseverance613

Mon, Feb 16 2015, 11:27 am

mille wrote:

A creation by definition requires a creator. A creator does not require a creation.

mille wrote:

What is your source for "yiddishkeit" being the true religion? Aren't you lucky that out of ~16,000,000 Jews out of ~7,000,000,000 people in the world, you just so happened to be born into the religion that is The One True Religion? What is your proof that it's true? Oh, right. Torah. Circular logic. It would be difficult to fabricate the claim of the revelation (this argument coming on the tails of previous arguments in this thread about how some events in the Torah are not to be taken literally, and some numbers mentioned e.g. the 600,000 mentioned are not to be taken literally...). It would also be difficult to fabricate the claim that a dead person literally rose from the dead and was alive again, in front of witnesses, three days after death, wouldn't it? But another religion did just that, one that has a much bigger following than Christianity (over 1 billion). This doesn't follow, as none of us were there for the revelation. All we have to go by is an account supposedly written shortly after it happened, directly orated from God himself, the only source of this being the text itself. Just as all religions have -- their own bibles, their own written word, that's all we have to go on for religious events that happened thousands of years ago.

Two million witnesses passed down their testimony to their children, who in turn passed it on to their children. No other religion can claim this. They are all based on a single person's testimony. How do you know your grandparent's birth certificate is not a fake! Because of their testimony.

mille wrote:

I don't really get why #3 is an argument against science at all, nor that it follows through. As for 4, same thing. If you don't believe in God, you don't believe God gave out the mitzvot, you believe that it is a human construct. So it really doesn't matter the reason. There have also been debates on this forum as to the 'goodness' of the mitzvot. There are plenty of mitzvot that are really not good in some cases. Many agunot would have a bone to pick with a particular halacha. So would many women with halachic infertility. But if it came from God, it must be good, I guess.

Not trying to disprove science here. Your inability in understanding a mitzvah does not mean its not good. It just means that you don't understand it because of the limit of human intellect.

mille wrote:

I just feel like your post was very insulting. This thread wasn't asking for proof as to why God MUST exist, nor was it even asking for other reasoning. The majority of the posts in the first few pages are from personal experiences without the debating. But your post was very condescending and outright mean. You called people "sad" for not sharing your beliefs. Good for you that you believe everything so solidly and blindly, but it doesn't make anyone "sad' for questioning why things are the way they are, or how differing beliefs can still conform to a belief system.

If you want to go ad hominem, let me inform you that I was not "born" into religion. I chose my religion. Truth is not always politically correct - sorry if it insults you. Wake up and smell the coffee.