Sending boys away for high school

amother

Mon, Feb 23 2015, 7:02 pm

I live in an OOT community (St Louis) where the more yeshivish families all send their boys away for high school. That segment of the community formed a Bais Yaakov years ago but chose not to start a boys school they would feel comfortable sending to. They did start a Chafetz Chaim school that, at best, 1-2 kids go to each year and the rest are from other cities.

What is the reasoning behind this? There's this pressure for them to learn at the very best, and something started locally will not have that reputation (at least not for a few years minimum til it gets off the ground) so it seems they won't start a local boys school. So they literally all send their boys away. No one stays but maybe a couple of kids. And because of this, when I moved here I joined the more modern school even though we began as an Agudah family. I have a bunch of boys and they were already older when we arrived. I'm so opposed to this idea of sending them away for chinuch at the expense of family and parenting. 14 is very very young. Most of these boys never live at home again for more than a few weeks at a time and I consider that sad.

Am I missing something? I'm a BT - is my background leaving me clueless here? Growing up, the few kids who went away to school were misfits and had "issues." You never sent away your kid unless there was a real problem at home and they needed intervention. Why does a community support this? When I ask, all I hear is that this is what's done. It's hard but it's what's done.

Coke Slurpee

Mon, Feb 23 2015, 8:22 pm

Small oot communities often cant support multiple yeshivas.
From my understanding the boys hs in st louis is small and caters to weaker boys or boys that don't fit in to a mainstream yeshiva. Unless I misunderstood something and there are two hs in St Louis.

A school has to be a good fit, and every school is different. I don't see it as outsourcing chinuch, as supposed to finding the best place for your son to grow and learn.

That being said I live in a large oot Jewish community, with three main boys h.s. My son is in 8th grade and I would love to keep him "in town". But for various reasons none of those places are good for him and he will be dorming in a oot yeshiva. Is he young? Yes of course. Is it ideal for him? Not necessarily. But it would definitely be much worse for him to stay here. It was a decision that we thought long and hard about. Am I outsourcing his chinuch? Technically yes, but its whats best for him. And I hope that the chinuch I gave him for the first 14 years of his life will have a lasting impact. I fervently hope that the next four years will only streghnthen the chinuch he got from home and not negate it.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Feb 23 2015, 10:12 pm

I have seen many boys absolutely blossom when sent out of town. Ones who were somewhat difficult, spoiled mommy's boys, or borderline learners have all stepped up to the plate and excelled themselves when given a new environment.

Some boys are serious learners, and don't feel challenged in their current school, so they do better in a place with more intense curriculum. There are schools for all kinds of boys, from OTD to talmud chocham.

Sending away is not for everybody, but for many parents it's the right choice, and for many boys who want to feel more independent, it's a perfect setting to grow up in.

If you don't like it, don't send, but don't look down on parents who do.

(I have a friend who sent her oldest daughter out to Denver BY for high school. The girl left a whiny, difficult child, and came back as a polished, eidel young woman. Anybody who knew that girl would be blown away at the transformation! On the other hand, their keeping their oldest boy at home, because he doesn't have the personality to go away to school.)

PinkFridge

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 8:39 am

amother wrote:

I'm the OP : thank you for the other perspective, it's helpful. I guess my frustration is that since the community is so many decades old, it's become a hashkafic decision, not a financial default, to not have a right wing yeshiva high school for boys. There's a MO school and then this Chafetz Chaim thing (I don't think much local funds go there since so very few send) but 2/3 of the community at this point is the Agudah crowd. Their elementary school is strong with larger classes; they could support a high school since their numbers are so high.

I guess this will be one of those things I ever get....

Again, even in larger communities a LOT of boys will go out of town. So it's not just your city.

amother

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 9:48 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Again, even in larger communities a LOT of boys will go out of town. So it's not just your city.

Being able to consider boarding as one of several viable options is not comparable to feeling that you "have to" send your child to board. If a community is sending 90% of its 14 year old boys out of town, that's a problem. From what I have seen, a rate that high means a lot of boys are being sent who shouldn't be. I would say the same for girls. This isn't based on my view of yeshivas specifically, but of boarding away from home in a dorm. A boarding situation with relatives or very close family friends could be different.

Secular boarding school amother.

amother

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 10:05 am

Quote:

There's a MO school and then this Chafetz Chaim thing

Wow, I don't even know how to respond to this.
It sounds like there is a boys high school in your city - just one that you're not happy with.
Have you looked into the yeshiva at all besides for just the rumors that you have heard? I cannot understand your logic in deciding to send a son to a MO school because the other school was "just this Chofetz Chaim thing". Do you think the hashkafos he will learn in Chofetz Chaim are more off-base with your home hashkafos than the things he will learn in a MO school?

I'm not sure what people's hangups are with Chofetz Chaim but almost all of the bad press they have is unfounded. Chofetz Chaim yehsivos in general (and obviously every school will have some exceptions) turn out boys that are extremely well-learned, well-rounded and have some of the best middos that you will ever see. (And, no, I do not work for any Chofetz Chaim affiliation or have any sons in their schools).

Is it possible that local rabbonim asked daas Torah about starting another yeshiva and were told that they were not allowed because there already is one there? This is very common in smaller cities - much more common than you may know about. I personally know of a few cities where this happened.

amother

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 10:43 am

I have a few disjointed thoughts so bear with me. My husband feels he was scarred for years because he went to an out of town high school. He says now that he didn't realize until he had a family how important it is to be a family and going out of town where the yeshiva only cared about him as a learner was bad for his self image. On the other hand he is introverted and more the poetic type so it may have been particularly bad for him. My (seven) brothers all stayed local for high school and unsurprisingly the ones who went to better run institutions were happier. They were all fine when they left home later but they are more naturally happy go lucky. So I think a LOT of the decision should depend on the kid's personality with the caveat that it's hard to tell what is going on under the surface.
Another thing is that we have lived near several yeshivas over the years and there are huge differences in their level of responsibility. Some yeshivas know where every kid is all the time and some are like, whatever, they're 15 years old and can take care of themselves. I have had boys over at the last minute because their mother called me. The boys said the yeshivas expect them to find their own meals on shabbos. If they have nowhere to go they tell their rabbi and he invites them. Which means they prefer not to tell him. I would make darn sure that's not how it works before I send my kid out of town.

amother

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 11:08 am

amother wrote:

I know this community well. They did try to start yeshivas many times for the more yeshivish. It never worked out. I obviously don't know the ins and outs, but a lot of it is financial. CC is part of a big network. Yes, they definitely need to fundraise, but they have a headquarters and have experience setting up new yeshivas. They also have a lot of boys from other cities who want the small town feel. There are already so many struggling mosdos in St. Louis. There probably is not enough funds to start another institution. (As a pp mentioned, Rabbanim may have agreed about this.) Better to keep what is existing open.

Anyway, amongst the boys themselves, they mostly want to go away. To tell a boy that wants to go away (and many of his friends are going away) to stay, would be very dangerous. Even if the yeshiva is great, he will likely feel bad and have an attitude- not good! It's usually not the mothers. Many of them miss their sons terribly. It's their desire to do what's best for their sons and not disturb status quo at the expense of their son.

The Chofetz Chaim yeshiva is great. There have been boys that have really flourished there. If sending away is not your thing or your sons thing (and your son is OK w/ your thing), it really is a great option.

Otherwise, Chicago and Cleveland are really not that far. Sons can come home much more often than places on the East Coast that require expensive air fair.

-anon for obvious reasons

Fox

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 12:00 pm

I was adamant that I *wasn't* sending my boys away . . . for all the reasons other posters have mentioned. In fact, I'm convinced that some of the shalom bayis problems that seem to plague young couples in our communities occur partly because the young men haven't really experienced day-to-day famly life since the age of bar mitzvah.

And guess what? Yes, I ended up sending both my sons away for mesivta.

Despite living in a community with at least three high schools for boys, none of them fit either of my sons.

I'm still not a big advocate for sending boys away, but I think Frantic Frumie nailed it: there is no single answer. Everything depends on the boy, the home, the yeshiva, the location of the yeshiva, etc.

Here are my observations and caveats based on my experiences:

1. Is the yeshiva genuinely set up to accommodate dorming boys? One of my sons went to a yeshiva that mostly accommodated boys from that region, and although they had formally recruited boys from elsewhere, they weren't really cognizant of what it means to supervise boys 24/7. There were lots of out-Shabbosos, which meant my son had to find someplace to go, and the supervision was lax at best.

2. Is the yeshiva close enough to practically allow home visits? That means not only in terms of travel time, but airline tickets as well. I watched ticket prices climb from $200 round trip to almost $600 round trip for my oldest son. While there are obviously people who don't have to worry about that, for the majority of us, the difference is appreciable.

3. Will the boy benefit from attending *this* yeshiva? One of my sons has three older sisters who are big influences on him. He needed to be around more masculine influences, but he also needed a place that would provide more warmth than some of the hyper-competitive yeshivas. That, rather than learning and academics, was our prime criterion.

4. Is family life conducive to immersion in learning? Often I hear mechanchim reduce this to whether the home is "happy" or not, and I think that's both inaccurate and irrelevant. The real question is whether the home atmosphere will distract him significantly. In our case, it was a big "yes." My DDs have, ahem, lively personalities and they tend to dominate the home atmosphere with their social lives, jobs, chessed, etc. My sons can't help but get drawn into their orbit, and it's very distracting.

5. Don't judge a school by anyone else's experience. The same school that turns out eidel graduates who loved their high school can also be traumatic for a kid with a different personality. IMHO, reputation means almost nothing when it comes to evaluating schools in this context.

To answer the poster who asked about why parents would resist sending a son to a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva: as I understand it, the methodology of learning in Chofetz Chaim is somewhat different than other yeshivas, and the Chofetz Chaim yeshivas have a fairly regimented "program" that takes a boy from high school to beis medrash to kollel. Once a boy has begun learning in a Chofetz Chaim yeshiva, it is quite likely that he will continue through kollel in the prescribed manner. If you're a Chofetz Chaim family, that's obviously great. However, if your family's derech is somewhat different, that may not be something you want for your sons. As I understand it, the differences are mainly connected with learning style and methodology, and thus we women often have difficulty relating.

Hatzlacha, OP! I'm sure your son will do great wherever he lands!

Coke Slurpee

Tue, Feb 24 2015, 7:45 pm

zaq wrote:

You hit the nail on the head. HS age boys belong under the supervision of their parents. Understood that in remote communities with no Jewish HS you pretty much have no choice but to send kids OOT; unfortunate but there it is. What I REALLY cannot fathom is sending your sons away, just when they need your guidance the most, when you HAVE a local HS.

I strongly disagree. Just because there is a local yeshiva hs, doesn't make it a good option for every boy.
First of all, just as long as there is more than one hs, ie. there isn't just one community school, not every child that applies will be accepted.
Secondly, some schools cater academically to top students, are very hard core, and their focus is learning Torah. Others, cater to weaker students, and might offer more skill based english subjects. Others might be academically high standard for Hebrew and English subjects.
Not every child can just go to any school, because not every school can and/or does cater to every child.

amother

Wed, Feb 25 2015, 3:14 am

zaq wrote:

Please don't put these mothers down. You may not agree w/ their reasoning, but most of them are NOT doing this to outsource their responsibilities. They miss their sons terribly and wish their sons would be home. It's very hard for them. There just isn't the framework to keep their son satisfied w/ learning and yiddishkeit, when staying near his parents is not the son's aspiration.

amother

Wed, Feb 25 2015, 6:52 am

Interestingly, where I live, in my yeahivish community, we all send away. The local yeshiva highschos are BAD all around. I know - I have a number of boys and we went to see them all. Theres a lot for chassidish boys, theres options locally if your Mo, but for yeshivish, not a lot. And the boys who stay here turn into bums. Punks. They hang out and smoke and thats not what I want. So I send away mainly to get my boys out of the current situation in monsey. My friends all agree - my city is a good place to be newly married, to have young kids or to be chassidish. By the time its highschool, if you arent chaddisidh or Mo its time to go. My dd goes away too for hs. She started there and wuickly deteriorated. Many of her friends left too.

So I saw, sending away has less to do with the size of your town and more to do with the quality of it.

PinkFridge

Wed, Feb 25 2015, 7:40 am

amother wrote:

Interestingly, in(where I live), in my yeahivish community, we all send away. The local yeshiva highschos are BAD all around. I know - I have a number of boys and we went to see them all. Theres a lot for chassidish boys, theres options locally if your Mo, but for yeshivish, not a lot. And the boys who stay here turn into bums. Punks. They hang out and smoke and thats not what I want. So I send away mainly to get my boys out of the current situation in. By the time its highschool, if you arent chaddisidh or Mo its time to go. My dd goes away too for hs. She started there and wuickly deteriorated. Many of her friends left too.

So I saw, sending away has less to do with the size of your town and more to do with the quality of it.

I understand why you went amother, but your mentioning your city, without it having to do with the OP makes me uncomfortable. Maybe you want to edit?

And Zaq, while we managed to keep our boys home the nature of the system is that the local high schools (which are by and large not connected high schools but new mosdos starting with 9th grade) aren't necessarily suitable for every kid. I do understand why people send away, but I do not believe it's necessary for everyone. B"H there are good options in relatively easy driving distance for parents to be able to visit, or to be able to bring home the kids fairly easily.

amother

Wed, Feb 25 2015, 7:44 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I don't know why it made you uncomfortable, but for shalom bayis, I edited it.