Was Esther together with Achashverosh?

imasinger

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 8:57 am

imasoftov wrote:

A purim proof that Esther and the king did sleep together. Esther is Mordechai’s bat dodo. In Cajun, a dance party is called a fais do-do, and do-do is connected to the French word dormir, meaning to sleep (I've heard two reasons connecting the dance party to going to sleep, either they would bring the little children to the party and set aside a room for them to sleep, or the mothers would put their children to bed before going to the party). QED

b from nj

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 9:01 am

Personally, I try not to get too hung up (no pun intended) on the midrashim in Megillas Esther or in general. I find no need to focus on whether or not Mordechai nursed Esther (never heard that in all my 40+ years on this planet). As far as I understand it, Esther was Mordechai's niece & not his wife.

She like all the other good looking virgins in the Persian kingdom had to appear before the king & when he summoned her, she had no choice BUT to be with him. And when she went to him unannounced, it was at Mordechai's request & not b/c she was in the mood for a romp with the king. I think it's important not to get too bogged down with all the midrashim on the megilla. It doesn't seem very helpful to me at least.

Last edited by b from nj on Mon, Mar 02 2015, 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 9:01 am

I don't remember the source, but when learning about yaharog v'al ya'avor I learned that Esther made herself like the karka.

And in Tehillim Perek Chof Beis, the allusion to ayelet hashachar is actually referring to Esther gave Achashverosh intense pleasure since her body was like that of a besula each and every time Achashverosh slept with her. Again, I don't remember the source.

I see nothing wrong and disgusting with the idea that Mordechai nursed Esther. It may seem disgusting because we are not used to men nursing, but the G-d who created women with the ability to nurse in order to sustain babies -- and that is not disgusting because we are used to it -- used His same infinite wisdom to protect the future savior of Klal Yisroel by enabling her only caretaker to sustain her. Can you imagine what she absorbed, not in her mother's milk, but in her cousin's milk? Perhaps this is part of the reason she was fortified with the strength and kedusha she needed to surpass the nisayon that none of us probably could!

groovy1224

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 9:09 am

chani8 wrote:

Huh? Esther saved the Jews, for one. And two, I am as horrified as you that our Chachamim say that Mordechai actually nursed Esther. The image that conjures is just gross. And three, I don't think I'm being disrespectful to Mordechai. I am questioning the Chachamim who said all that.

You absolutely can question it..go right ahead. But you don't have to be degrading about it. Would you appreciate your doctor talking to you about your 'boobs?' I'm pretty sure you'd prefer a more adult manner of speaking. Surely your can afford the same sensitivity to the torah?

Also,I was unaware that mordechai played no part in the saving of the Jewish people. I assume soon they'll publish a retracted version of the story, in which his name will be edited out appropriately.

And this may come as a shock, but the chachamim did not base their torah interpretations based on what may or may not seem gross to chani8. Look, I don't get it either, but it was a different time. I don't understand animal sacrifices, or how rivka was married at the age of 2 either, but I figure G-d's got it under control. Don't like to picture it? So don't. But don't mock it.

Raisin

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 9:10 am

imasoftov wrote:

I don't know about you, but if someone kidnapped a girl today, I'd try harder than that.

So, what have you personally done to rescue all the girls kidnapped in Nigeria by Boko Haram?

I'm intrigued. Even Michelle Obama couldn't save them.

Ruchel

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 9:15 am

I like the nursing thing. LOL. There are some weirdddd gmaros and midrashim on that one. LOL.

http://www.scientificamerican......tate/

I happen to find the perpetual betula feeling much more disturbing Smile

pause

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 9:26 am

I just read the book "Shadow on the Crown" by Patricia Bracewell. It gives a very vivid depiction of what it is like being the king's wife. After reading it, I got a newfound understanding of the tragedy that was Esther's life.

chani8

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 10:00 am

groovy1224 wrote:

Deleting because I'm fuming right now and so all I will say is you are out of line and wrong.

m in Israel

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:10 pm

b from nj wrote:

I am not picking on you in particular -- just quoting this post because it is the most recent one with this idea that posters keep repeating despite being told that it is wrong. Esther was NOT Mordechai's niece!!! She was his cousin. This is not a medrash or chazal or different opinion. It is a straight out Pasuk in the megilla (Megillas Esther 2:7 "And he [referring to Mordechai] adopted Haddassah, she is Esther, the daughter of his uncle [bas dodo] for she had no father or mother")

m in Israel

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:15 pm

imasoftov wrote:

I don't know about you, but if someone kidnapped a girl today, I'd try harder than that.

Even today there are many rulers in the world with the equivalent of "harems". Emperors in the ancient world kidnapping and raping whomever they chose is not exactly an anomaly. I don't really find that part of the story to be difficult to understand.

PinkFridge

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:16 pm

amother wrote:

she had 2 sons with him and stayed married to him even after the Jews were saved. So I'm pretty certain that yes they shared a bed.

And it's very sad. Purim is the day when all the puzzle pieces fall into place. But one. That'll happen at the ultimate war with Amaleik, when the name of Hashem and His throne will be fully restored.

Ruchel

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:30 pm

Yes she couldn't go back since she voluntarily went to the king... whether or not it was her or a replacement, it was just not possible to have people believe nothing happened. And iirc she helped raised Koresh to be kosher (same letters). Interestingly Dariavesh and Koresh are used in Italy, who notoriously love rarer names (Chulda, Yirat etc).

b from nj

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:35 pm

m in Israel wrote:

I stand corrected b/c you are right, I do recall the megillah using the exact words bat dodo. Not sure why it was explained as Esther being Mordechai's niece rather than his daughter but maybe that is a medrash that was taught to me in school over the years or maybe it is my amnesia that is kicking in early Wink

, not really sure but that said, I think it's easier to understand Mordechai & Esther as being cousins (as stated in the p'shat) rather than as husband & wife.

etky

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 12:43 pm

b from nj wrote:

, not really sure but that said, I think it's easier to understand Mordechai & Esther as being cousins (as stated in the p'shat) rather than as husband & wife.

I think we intuitively think of them as uncle/niece b/c we have a picture in our minds of a generational gap - the wise, older Mordechai who offers guidance to Esther, and the young and beautiful Esther who is his 'ward'. "Cousins" intimates generational parity whereas we're taught that Mordechai raised Esther and was a father figure.

black sheep

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 1:02 pm

I know of the man nursing medrash, but I never knew it was mordechai!

chani8, not all medrashim need to be accepted literally. some medrashim are metaphorical. therefore, if a medrash doesn't sit right with you, you can say you understand it metaphorically instead of literally. like, mordechai took such good care of esther, and found a way to provide for her every need, it was as if he grew breasts and nursed her right from his own body!

I personally have no issue with the nursing medrash, (in fact I would indeed be lovely if a man can nurse for a change,) but there are medrashim that I say to myself, wow, there is no way that one is literal! and the good news is that medrashim are there to enhance understanding of the Torah, and can be applied by each person as appeals to your own frame of reference.

amother

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 1:04 pm

There are actually quite afew stories in the Gemara where men got the ability to nurse their babies.
I also heard a medrash that whenever Esther was with achashvairosh her neshama left her body & a Mazik entered her body.

Chayalle

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 1:50 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

In fact, I learned that one of the reasons we don't say Hallel on Purim is due to the fact that Esther was forced to remain the wife of Achashveirosh.

gittelchana

Mon, Mar 02 2015, 2:50 pm

blueberries wrote:

I thought a jewish women is not allowed to be with a non jewish man. Did Esther share her bed with Achashverosh?

She was raped by him. She had no choice in the matter. Sad

She did not DO anything.