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-> Interesting Discussions
amother
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 Sun, Mar 15 2015, 2:53 pm
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Specifically, I am trying to figure out where each of the Trei Asar fit in. So, who knows when each of them lived? Which major neviim/kings/events were they contemporary with? Thanks.
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etky
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Sun, Mar 15 2015, 3:38 pm
Some are not easily dated - like Yoel who is very obscure and scholars don't really no for sure when he lived.
Yona is also pretty mysterious. He is sometimes placed during the reign of the second Jeroboam of the northern kingdom since there was another prophet of that name at that time but no one really knows for sure.
Micha, Amos and Hoshea were all pretty much contemporaries. They lived at the time of Yishayahu and Hizkiyahu. Micha prophecyed over Judah (like Yishayahu) and Hoshea and Amos prophecyed over the northern kingdom.
Tzephania was after them, probably during the reign of Menashe and into the beginning of Yoshiyahu's reign (before Yirmiyahu)
Ovadia is also somewhat obscure because his short prophecy covers several historical periods of the churban. According to modern scholarship he probably began prophecying at the beginning of the churban period though traditionally he was thought to have been identified with עובדיה אשר על הבית from the Achav story which places him much earlier.
Haggai,Zechariah and Malachi are all from the post-exilic period of shivat tzion, the very beginning of bayit sheni and they signify the end of the prophetic period.
That leaves Nachum and Habakuk. I really don't know anything about them and never studied them. I guess you can look them up.
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Chayalle
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Tue, Mar 17 2015, 2:42 pm
| etky wrote: |
Yona is also pretty mysterious. He is sometimes placed during the reign of the second Jeroboam of the northern kingdom since there was another prophet of that name at that time but no one really knows for sure.
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Wasn't Yona the child that Eliyahu Hanavi brought back to life? I remember learning that he was muchan L'Nevuah because Eliyahu Hanavi breathed into him.
Makes sense according to your timeline, too.....he would've been a child in the time of Achav....
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etky
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Tue, Mar 17 2015, 2:54 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | Wasn't Yona the child that Eliyahu Hanavi brought back to life? I remember learning that he was muchan L'Nevuah because Eliyahu Hanavi breathed into him.
Makes sense according to your timeline, too.....he would've been a child in the time of Achav.... |
I don't know. There could be a midrash that says that.
Wait - isn't there an opinon that the mother of the child was the widow of עובדיה אשר על הבית who hid the nevi'im of Hashem from Izevel? In that case he could not have been the son of Amitay.
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Chayalle
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Tue, Mar 17 2015, 3:02 pm
| etky wrote: | I don't know. There could be a midrash that says that.
Wait - isn't there an opinon that the mother of the child was the widow of עובדיה אשר על הבית who hid the nevi'im of Hashem from Izevel? In that case he could not have been the son of Amitay. |
No, that widow came to Elisha, because her sons were to be sold for her debt....and he told her to fill all her vessels with oil and then keep pouring and sell the oil.
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etky
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Tue, Mar 17 2015, 3:20 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | | No, that widow came to Elisha, because her sons were to be sold for her debt....and he told her to fill all her vessels with oil and then keep pouring and sell the oil. |
Right. That's why he was so inclined to help her.
So I guess it is possible then. Interesting though because according to some interpretations, and as the text itself implies, the woman was a gentile. Tzarfat was in Lebanon, Izevel's birthplace. OTOH that could actually fit beautifully with one of the themes of Sefer Yonah, about Divine providence being universal - not just reserved for the Jewish people.
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malkacooks
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Tue, Mar 17 2015, 3:32 pm
| Chayalle wrote: | | No, that widow came to Elisha, because her sons were to be sold for her debt....and he told her to fill all her vessels with oil and then keep pouring and sell the oil. |
thats what I thought
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amother
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Tue, Mar 17 2015, 8:37 pm
If you can get onto chinuch.org, there's a file from shira smiles I believe, about the treI asar, with a ton of info including what you're looking for.I used it this year to teach tree asar in high school.
Good luck!
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amother
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Tue, Mar 17 2015, 8:45 pm
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Chayalle, you're confusing Eliyahu and Elisha. Eliyahu was the story with the widow and the oil (Meacham Alef ch. 17). Later, that same widow's son died, and Eliyahu brought him back to life through prayer. Then there is the more famous story in the beginning of Melachim Beis (ch.4) with Elisha and the Isha haShunamit. There the child died as well and Elisha brings him back to life by performing a ritual. There are obvious parallels but also some differences. I believe both of those boys later grew up to be one of the Trei Asar, though I don't remember which ones.
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summer0808
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Tue, Mar 17 2015, 9:36 pm
I remember learning that Eliyahu was mchaya mesim a child who became Yonah Hanavi. Elisha was mchaya mesim the child of the Isha Hashunamis who grew up to be Chavakuk.
Also Chavakuk was a contemporary of Yirmiyahu and Chulda. That Yirmayahu said nevios on the streets, Chulda to the women and Chavakuk to the men??
Both the Isha Hashunamis and the story with the oil was with Elisha.
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amother
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Tue, Mar 17 2015, 9:51 pm
| summer0808 wrote: | I remember learning that Eliyahu was mchaya mesim a child who became Yonah Hanavi. Elisha was mchaya mesim the child of the Isha Hashunamis who grew up to be Chavakuk.
Also Chavakuk was a contemporary of Yirmiyahu and Chulda. That Yirmayahu said nevios on the streets, Chulda to the women and Chavakuk to the men??
Both the Isha Hashunamis and the story with tho e oil was with Elisha. |
You're right, the oil was also Elisha, Eliyahu was the one with the flour and the bread. Basically, Elisha performed parallel miracles to what his rebbe Eliyahu had previously performed. That's why it get confusing 
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etky
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Wed, Mar 18 2015, 1:47 am
| amother wrote: | | You're right, the oil was also Elisha, Eliyahu was the one with the flour and the bread. Basically, Elisha performed parallel miracles to what his rebbe Eliyahu had previously performed. That's why it get confusing |
Both performed food related miracles for widows and both brought children back to life. With Eliyahu it was the same woman - the woman from Tzarfat (Lebanon) and with Elisha it was two different women. Elisha's miracle of the oil and flour was performed for the woman that chazal say was the widow of Ovadia - Ahav's steward (who chazal identify with Ovadiah Hanavi)- while the said child was the Shunamite's son.
Chazal in general follow a rule called "conservation of personalities" and are eager to conflate identities of people about whom little is really known with personalities that are mentioned in the biblical text.
This explains the theories about Ovadiah, Yona and Habakuk.
Scholarship places all three prophets later though. Ovadia about 250 years later, to the period of the churban, Yona just a bit later (theoretically, from a chronological standpoint he could possibly have been the woman from Tzarfat's son) to the reign of Jeroboam the second when Ashur was already a world power. Interesting that the two traditional stories mentioned here about Habakuk contradict each other chronologically. If he indeed was the son of the Shunamite there is no way he could have been alive and prophecying during the reign of Yoshiyahu along with Chuldah and Yirmiyahu - we're talking about a gap of at least 150 years.
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youngishbear
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Wed, Mar 18 2015, 12:25 pm
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I just found an article in the hamodia's kinyan of chanukah. They have a timeline with the details, including the kingdoms. Contact them for it.
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Chayalle
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Wed, Mar 18 2015, 1:50 pm
| amother wrote: | | You're right, the oil was also Elisha, Eliyahu was the one with the flour and the bread. Basically, Elisha performed parallel miracles to what his rebbe Eliyahu had previously performed. That's why it get confusing |
Right, because he asked for "Pi Shnayim Berucho" - so he was able to perform similar miracles. Like Eliyahu made that the flour and oil would not be used up....and Elisha was able to perform a miracle of the oil pouring in even greater quantities.
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studying_torah
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Thu, Mar 19 2015, 9:27 am
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So how do we understand the story that paroh survived kriyas yam suf and became the king of ninveh, if yona was a navi and traveled to ninveh so much later?
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Chayalle
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Thu, Mar 19 2015, 9:40 am
| studying_torah wrote: | | So how do we understand the story that paroh survived kriyas yam suf and became the king of ninveh, if yona was a navi and traveled to ninveh so much later? |
Paroh would have lived very, supernaturally, long, according to that Midrash.
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etky
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Thu, Mar 19 2015, 10:04 am
| Chayalle wrote: | | Paroh would have lived very, supernaturally, long, according to that Midrash. |
Like Og
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amother
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Thu, Mar 19 2015, 10:18 am
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Well, if we're talking about supernatural lifespans, count Eliyahu in too, Pinchas zo Eliyahu and all That also gets to Etky's point about Chazal attributing figures who are more mysterious to those who are more well-known.
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