Frum Survivor Sima tells her story publicly for the 1st time

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 12:54 am

Aubergine, what you're saying is if a baby plays with a knife and gets hurt it's partly her own fault?

Teens shouldn't be having relations because they do not understand the power, the meaning, and the consequences. An adult does.

An adult who is attracted to a child in the first place has a problem. An older teenager who flirts with an adult should be viewed by the adult as a kid playing with a knife and STOPPED for her own good. He should never indulge the teen's immaturity (and his own lust.)

I understand that you're saying you believe some of these victimized kids were playing with a knife, but really, I hope you agree that the adult in the room is responsible for what happens. The adult is not the victim of the child's flirtations.

If you're claiming we don't live in an ideal world where adults do the right thing all the time, then you're right, but the adult's wrongdoing are the adult's wrongdoing.

amother

Wine

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:10 am

amother wrote:

Im sorry I'm going to beg to differ. Your words sound like a far cry from the typical victim. So whether you were molested or not or whether you are a man or a woman, know that yes, to most victims; coming out is not about revenge but about breaking the silence and shattering the secrecy that you have learned to live with. It is therapeutic and breaks the cycle of living the life of the silent and humiliated victim.

And your words sound sick. They beg for it?? They are children!!!!!!!!! If a child asks to go into a 6 feet deep pool you allow him to drown because he asked for it??! Not because he is a minor!!!!THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE LAW!!! BUT BECAUSE HE IS A CHILD. And adults are supposed to protect children.
GET IT? GOT IT? Good. Puke

Your really made me laugh.
I came accros very harsh and some miss read what I intended. I will explain y I wrote what I wrote.
1- in 'my' community some story's came to light that it was never true. It was only for revenge (I know one story on a personal level)
2- the bashing of the Rabbi's involved is what bothered me. There r other ways to go about it and that is program.
3- bec I have the knowledge of s*x addiction and everything related to it (my dh is a s*x addict) I view this issue with a different color lends. (This topic is the stage 3 of addiction)

Yes, it is a great act of courage to come forward with a story like this. But do it the proper way. Go to program, support groups in this topic. Public story telling is not healing or better, it wasn't healing for me ( my story went public w/o my consent) it just deepened the pain - with the pretty face of revenge (not mine, others involved. ) !

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:21 am

There are three amothers who are saying different but similar things.

Powderblue: it's just her word against his, how can we know for sure

Aubergine: sometimes the victim plays a role by being suggestive or "asking for it"

Wine: sometimes the molestor is ill and the only thing that will work in healing him and taming the monster within is (what I'm guessing) the Twelve Steps program?

Correct me if I'm wrong. It gets confusing when the different amothers reply to replies meant for others.

Merrymom

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:34 am

Frumdoc wrote:

I am horrified that anyone can call girls in her own community "good and dirty" - whatever that means and imply these girls are asking to be zexually assaulted in whatever way, groomed, seduced, or held down and forcibly raped, by older men in positions of authority.

I just can't get over it.

Don't get too upset about this, we have a man here in the discussion. This is the typical mindset of rapists and molesters. I sincerely hope he has no kids and never will so long as he's of this mindset, because someone like this will NEVER protect his own children, let alone should he be left alone with anyone else's.

Last edited by Merrymom on Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:44 am; edited 2 times in total

Merrymom

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:34 am

amother wrote:

They're all the same guy.

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:45 am

Merrymom wrote:

They're all the same guy.

I'm not so sure. I think the attitude is a patriarchal one, but not necessarily being spouted by a man or men here now. It's being repeated by women who have heard it and accept it as the truth.

Upthread I repeated some disturbing arguments I've heard about adult males having less of an aveirah for relations with girls over bas mitzvah age. I knew it was wrong and couldn't pin down a good answer why, halachically.

The posters I listed believe the rubbish they've been sold.

We dress tzniusdig to do our part for kedushas yisroel, not to safeguard against rape or molestation. For rapists it's about power, and a modest woman may awaken the monster even more so. For molestors it's about feeding their illness, and it's not the kind of disease that we can pity.

I know the relations addiction idea is that addicts are ill, not evil, but I'm sorry if that idea doesn't sit well with me when the "relations partners" of the addict are innocent children who are being damaged for life.

I am acquainted with relations addiction, and I'm sorry wine amother that you are, too. BUT crimes against children cannot be allowed to pass unpunished.

werty

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:47 am

amother wrote:

thats the difference, I imagine.
And I guess she mentioned the Rabbis names so that other Rabbis would know they won't get away with it

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:50 am

amother wrote:

You r wrong and vermilion is current.
Try to post anonymously and go back to check ur post, u get the same sub name. Try it, to prove it.

Some people are paranoid and think members have multiple usernames.

And that posters change their writing style to hide their identity.

Etc etc.

So your idea is good, but it won't prove anything to those who don't believe. It's a familiar theme in this thread. Confused

Merrymom

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:55 am

amother wrote:

It seems you did not read what I wrote.
Just skimmed and it took what you wanted to see and made judgments.

My points were clearly that no man EVER has a right to do this. Yes it is sick to do this. To a child especially. Enough said.

I made other points that I applaud victims for speaking out.
Yes, I think victims should speak out and should for the most part be believed. Another clear point.

As a side point - mostly not the case- but it happens- sometimes there are false accusations. And its not always a matter of being convicted. Sometimes it doesn't get to the point of professionals and court cases before a false accusation can harm someone.

And another side point.
That ppl push aside the "turn on" factor of a male (which in no way gives them an OK to hurt anyone ever!) But saying a guy doesn't get turned on is like saying there is no sky.
It just bothers me that women here so blatantly pretend that our "Womanliness" doesn't affect guys in the least bit and they can do whatever they please and point fingers., um hello, how would we have kids otherwise?
Almost all healthy males will not do anything with this. Not healthy males it adds fuel to fire.
I repeat. This does not make it OK. This does not say that a victim is only that because her indecency. But it does take a tiny drop of innocence out of the victim if she was indecent. Again... Not OK and never allowed to happen even so. Just a point.
Take it or leave it.

Not sure why that renders me a mental case but feel free to have ur opinions and be blessed. I forgive you for judging me.

If the world was filled with matronly old ladies in bubby shoes, these sick perverts would get turned on. Give me a royal (that's my nice word) break!! This has nothing to do with being attracted to females, they're not starting up with other women, only vulnerable shy children who they think would keep their secret. People that they can control, definitely not someone who is at their level.

Merrymom

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 1:59 am

amother wrote:

Upthread I repeated some disturbing arguments I've heard about adult males having less of an aveirah for relations with girls over bas mitzvah age. I knew it was wrong and couldn't pin down a good answer why, halachically.

I've heard from a rav that this is a complete myth, because there's a halacha against treating a girl/woman as a wh***, so without kiddushin it is completely assur. Guys tell themselves what they want to believe unfortunately, however.

amother

Wine

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:02 am

amother wrote:

I Agree with what your saying 100%. But if u keep in mind that many s*x addicts were punished and publicized (including mine) and continued doing what they were doing before, proves that it's a disease. The cure is the 12 step program, for both ( victim and prosecutor) not blaming and shaming.

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:04 am

Merrymom wrote:

Thanks so much for that. Sources would be great, if you have them.

Isn't biuh (relations) a form of kiddushin? Especially with an unmarried girl. Again, these are statements men have made in my oresence and I don't know enough to calm the rage I feel when I hear such "halachos".

It is so painful when the Torah is twisted and abused to fit a sick agenda.

But you are right, I have learned that the people I heard it from are addicts, so no surprise there.

Merrymom

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:09 am

Well men say because they used to be allowed a pilegesh that therefore it is ok. They conveniently forget that a pilegesh still had kiddushin, just not a kesubah. Also she was forbidden to all other men, was just his alone, just like a wife. Not a woman that goes from man to man or even a young girl who will eventually marry someone else. Those are all forbidden relationships and the Rambam discusses this as do many other sources but that will have to wait until tomorrow if you would still like to read about it yourself.

Sorry, meant to answer that no, relations alone is definitely not kiddushin.

amother

Vermilion

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:11 am

amother wrote:

So other colored amothers, stop blaming and shaming the victims, thank you!!

I just want to point out that these men are dangerous. We don't want to lock them up or put them on walls of shame only to punish them, but also because I want to know which men to keep my children away from. And I hope the principal at my son's school knows not to hire a pedophile/addict to serve as a private tutor.

Please, do your step work and forgive your abuser.

But don't let him roam the streets, in my town or any other.

Even if he does get in the program and works his steps. Can anyone guarantee that he stays in recovery?? Even one slip from a pedophile in recovery can have devastating consequences for a lifetime.

Also, please be aware that such kind of rachmanus for pedophiles, that they're ill and not evil, is what makes people get upset with the whole idea of relations being an addiction. You do know that it's controversial?

ora_43

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:14 am

Merrymom wrote:

It would be nice if the only people who ever blamed the victim were male rapists. That would make punishing rapists and child molesters much much easier.

But that's not even close to being the case.

ora_43

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:31 am

black sheep wrote:

in either case, just to address one point, no one disagrees that someone might be wrongly accused. no one thinks that no child ever lied and made up a story. but there are professionals, people who are trained and experienced in this, who can determine if a child/teen/adult is lying. before any accused molester is ever convicted, the victims are questioned by these professionals. so you don't have to worry so much over someone being wrongly accused. justice will set the record straight.

I don't want to add fuel to what some of the amothers here are saying, since they are way off base. But - what you're saying is not right, either. It would be nice if professionals had some way to determine who's telling the truth for sure, but all they can do is weed out most of the people who are deliberately lying.

There have been people who went through the system and were jailed for rape, and only set free decades later thanks to DNA evidence. They were jailed despite the involvement of professionals.

It's important to note that those cases were very very different from this case. Those people were convicted due to unintentional untruths, not deliberate lies. Victims falsely identifying a rapist tends to happen when the rapist is a stranger, not when it's someone they know. And many changes have been made to the system to prevent people from being falsely jailed for molestation.

(People falsely claiming to be victims is also a real thing, but in cases like that they almost never accuse a real, live person. They tend to be suffering from a form of attention-seeking mental disorder, but are not malicious and don't want to harm anyone.)

My point is - it's very very unlikely that an innocent would be accused of a s-x crime and end up in jail. And it's stupid to be so afraid of convicting an innocent person that we never convict anyone. As harsh as it is, better to have a dozen innocent people in jail, than to have thousands of dangerous rapists running around free.

But it would be dangerous to say "justice will set the record straight," because when justice has set the record straight, it was only thanks to those people who were willing to believe that an injustice might have occurred. IOW we have to recognize that the system is fallible in order to keep the system working.

ora_43

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:42 am

amother wrote:

Almost all healthy males will not do anything with this. Not healthy males it adds fuel to fire.
I repeat. This does not make it OK. This does not say that a victim is only that because her indecency. But it does take a tiny drop of innocence out of the victim if she was indecent. Again... Not OK and never allowed to happen even so. Just a point.
Take it or leave it.

This is sick. I don't really have words to explain right now all the reasons why I think it's so disturbing, but I can't let it go without protest.

This is sick, and morally wrong. A victim is 100% innocent. Even if they were wandering around the most dangerous part of town at 3 am drunk and naked. In that case you could say they weren't 100% cautious, but never that they weren't 100% innocent.

amother

Wine

Mon, Mar 30 2015, 2:47 am

amother wrote:

Tx for understanding, not judging and explaining.
I get your point. And that is / was my point too. We need to protect our kids. Educate them ! The schools haveto do their part too.

Can you explain to me what the blaming and shaming does? It doesn't get them off the street or into program! There r 1,000s of them around. Tell ur child don't go next to abc..... It's never ending, u'll never know all of them.... U need God to protect them.

If the victim wants to publish her story, kol h'kovod, but what is her aim her gain? (Recovery u only get by speaking to the proper ppl. )

I am working my program, and I don't forgive my abuser, but I got the sense of acceptance.