Forced marriages (s/o of All Who Go Do Not Return)

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5mom

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:50 am

Chayalle wrote:

I can't like this enough. So interesting and apropos, especially if we consider that Ploni Almoni was the opposite of Boaz, and refused to consider Ruth for societal, stigma reasons.

I had a teacher who used to say that the goel was "too frum" to participate in the geula, and so his name was wiped out, unlike Machlon and Kilyon, who sinned but didn't hide behind frumkeit.

amother

Lime

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 4:26 pm

Another giores here. When I was in shidduchim I was explicitly told by rabbonim in sem I should not tell a prospective shidduch about my status (unless he is a cohen, of course) until he at least met me once.

Because a lot of people automatically assume a wild past, non committedness and a totally different cultural background, when they hear "giores". Which in my case was not true. I converted at 20, had no "past" at all and came from a stable, good, almost "jewish"-thinking and behaving family. I was frum for a long time and very good looking, even had the generic "cookie cutter" "jewish" features.... (stupid prejudice, again, I know FFBs with no convert background that are tall and blond....)

Yet, people are biased and turn you down before even going out with you.

And yes,they too tried to push me into bad shidduchim, too, even the rav who did my giur. BH I was always stubborn. I ended up marrying a wonderful guy. My sem rav who tried to pressure me into bad shidduchim actually, came to me and apologized.... thats true greatness.

I know lots of stories from gioreses and bt who let people they trusted push them into rotten shidduchim. One lady (3 jewish grandparents, just maternal grandma was goysh) who converted was only fixed up with three time divorcees and guys with huge mental health issues. She was strong enough to break two engagements until she unconventionally met her husband. Theyre very happy.

Another giyores was fixed up with another ger just because of the color of their skin.... marriage was horrible and lasted 2 months... girl got OTD...

The unfortunate Brazilian who was coaxed into marrying this guy Kin in a bigamist marriage - also a giyores.

I got offers from 70 year old divorced chasidim who wanted to marry me when I was 21! I got offers from three times divorced men and divorcees with huge families. And had some shadchanim freak out and say very very mean things to me when I dared to turn them down....
Some shadchanim make you feel like garbage. Youre a giores, youre old (I was 22), you will never get married if you dont take mr xy. At least bc I never had a boyfriend before I converted my "market value" rose a little... a shadchanit told me: wow, you can even go out with a FFB..... *facepalm*

BT often experience the same thing...

Chayalle

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 4:47 pm

amother wrote:

The unfortunate Brazilian who was coaxed into marrying this guy Kin in a bigamist marriage - also a giyores.

I actually have a hard time with this line. A woman who would allow herself to be coaxed into marrying a guy who has not given his wife a get.....there's got to be a limit.

Though I really feel for you and anyone who has been in the position you describe, in the rest of your post.

Frumdoc

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 5:40 pm

My friends who are converts have told me their shocking stories in shidduchim such as a 35 yr old never married, professional female giores being offered a choice between men in theri 50s to 60s, with various issues such as

A wheelchair bound and blind man with early dementia who needed a wife aka full time carer.

A 4 times divorced man with anger issues and never held down a job.

A 55 year old with paranoid schizophrenia who spent half his year in psychiatric hospital as an inpatient.

A man with moderate LD who lived with his parents but they now needed help themselves so wanted to marry him off to someone who could look after him physically and financially.

BH she has a positive outlook on life and laughed such crazy ideas off, but I was so ashamed of the institutions who consider a healthy, clever and attractive young woman to be unsuitable for any "normal" man. She has now married a wonderful 40 year old man who dotes on her and has no more issues than most of us.

You can scream all you like that just having a preference is not discrimination, but if the preference is prejudicial, this is discrimination. So if you won't consider a man because of his skin color, whether he is genetically jewish or has chosen to be, this is discriminatory. Likewise, if you consider that all converts are off your list irrelevant of any other relevant characteristics, this is prejudicial. No one is forcing an individual to date, but as a community, a ger is a second or third class citizen when it comes to shidduchim and it is in part due to all these individuals making their prejudicial criteria.

Volunteer

Tue, Apr 21 2015, 9:28 pm

amother wrote:

[b]

Oy oy oy
I am so glad I mostly met men myself through websites, or got suggest ions from people who knew what I was looking for. Shidduchim are he'll as it is. I'm glad to hear you married well in the end.

amother

Papaya

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 12:08 am

Regarding who BTs can marry, it seems like the "top" BT guys look to marry FFB girls, or girls from somewhat religious families who became more frum, and to even consider going out with another BT is like settling. And when I say FFB, I don't mean girls who went off the derech or have issues. Nice, frum, normal FFB girls. Rolling Eyes

My husband had only dated FFB girls before he went out with me, and was actually advised not to even consider me when he could do better. B"H he didn't listen.
It also bothers me when people say off the bat that they won't date gerim or BTs. Many are so stable and fully integrated into their communities that you would never even know their backgrounds. They don't all have sordid pasts, and they can have frum families! They can have Ashkenazi or Sephard minhagimi or even be Ger chassidim. But people would never know that if they don't look at each person as an individual person. If you don't want to date a chossid because you don't want to be part of that community, fine. But you have no idea what community a ger or bt is part of, or their background, so what exactly is it that people know won't be right for them?

Ruchel

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 5:55 am

On the bright side, some giores are engaged 3 months after giur Smile

Unfortunately, some people get really weird propositions, that I still don't know why they are thought relevant. Out of the box is good, but weird is not, unless they said they consider everything.

Frumdoc

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 6:11 am

Can someone explain the syrian thing? How is it ok that a whole community, led by the rabbonim, decide that they will not marry a convert as a takana?

Sadie

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 6:13 am

Frumdoc wrote:

Can someone explain the syrian thing? How is it ok that a whole community, led by the rabbonim, decide that they will not marry a convert as a takana?

It's not okay and I've never heard a good excuse for it. It's disgusting.

Iymnok

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 6:20 am

The only thing I can think of (I've never heard of this takana before) would be that they don't have way of knowing how committed and sincere the ger is and if every single part of the process has been met.
From my experience, if the ger has gone through the whole process, which can get pretty drawn out, and is still committed and serious, they will most likely stay that way. Especially if they are welcomed and well absorbed into the community.

imaima

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 6:41 am

Frumdoc wrote:

Can someone explain the syrian thing? How is it ok that a whole community, led by the rabbonim, decide that they will not marry a convert as a takana?

What I see in some circles is that many traditional but not religious men would marry a non-Jew and then try to convert them, so basically they are relying on conversion to legitimize their spouse, without actual commitment to judaism.
I don't know if that is the case with Syrians though, but it might be the necessary measure for preventing the discontinuation of tradition.

silbergirl

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 6:52 am

I heard that the Syrian community is not against gerim per se but they do not have any own beis din for geirus.
Also they indeed do reject giur done for marriage purposes, something that in the traditional Syrian community seems to be a pretty frequent case. Traditional Syrian guy meets non Jew and wants to marry her.

I heard they indeed do accept serious gerim and their children. However its such a closely knit community that they prefer to marry their relatives in most cases, anyway. Wont even consider marrying other Sephardim or ...worse... Ashkenazim... !

It is very tight networks and family and business structures bound together by culture and family ties. It is hard to get into that as an outsider, whether born Jewish or converted. Same goes for many chasidic sects.

Sadie

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 6:55 am

imaima wrote:

That's the excuse I heard, specifically that Syrian men would leave the community for business, fall in love with non-Jewish women, and then try to get them converted so that they could get married back home.
The obvious answer is to check background, observance level, have a minimum amount of time until a conversion can be considered, not accept converts who don't keep mitzvot, etc, which is a LOT more work for the community than a takana, but who said observing mitzvot was always supposed to be easy?

imaima

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 7:07 am

Sadie wrote:

You'd be surprised to hear which conversion stories exist. I won't tell them because I officially be labeled a convert-hater, but suffice is to say, many dayanim have been burned too. It is a shame that it makes it hard for sincere people to convert.

Sadie

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 7:16 am

imaima wrote:

I'm not surprised, I've heard lots of terrible stories too. In Israel I've heard of Xtians with Jewish heritage getting citizenship and converting with the intention of infiltrating communities and converting people to Xtianity. I don't know how much of that is true or just scare stories, but if you can dream of it, someone somewhere has probably done it.
Problems with accepting converts into Am Yisroel is nothing new, it's written about in the gemara.
I think the fact that it's hard must be the reason why ahavat hager is so emphasized in the Torah. To remind us that we don't get out of doing mitzvot because they are hard.
Preserving the flavor and traditions of a specific community is not more important than doing a mitzvah deoraita. It just isn't.

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 7:29 am

Frumdoc wrote:

Can someone explain the syrian thing? How is it ok that a whole community, led by the rabbonim, decide that they will not marry a convert as a takana?

The reason the Takana was established (it was in America by the way) is because when syrians were moving to the states, they had a lot more in common with the Italian Non-Jewish Immigrants than the Ashkenazim and many syrian guys who met pretty Italian girls would try to get them "converted" for the sake of marriage which is not permitted. This was such a huge and widespread issue that the Chachamim said "Eis Laasos LaHashem"- We have to make this proclamation so we can save our Jewish community from completely intermarrying. Therefore, As the syrian community knew that there were many other Batei Dinim that could convert and accept geirim the syrian rabbi's of that time, including my great-grandfather signed the proclamation.

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 7:31 am

Sadie wrote:

It's not okay and I've never heard a good excuse for it. It's disgusting.

It's not okay to think you're better than Rabbi's of the last generation that were probably on a much higher level than you and criticize their rulings.

Sadie

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 7:33 am

amother wrote:

It's not okay to think you're better than Rabbi's of the last generation that were probably on a much higher level than you and criticize their rulings.

Why are you amother for this?

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 7:35 am

Because I don't want you to think I'm out to get you in any way. I just think you should know that it's not a simple thing to disparage Rabbanim and Authority figures. I understand you don't understand the reason for the takana but to say "disgusting" about great Rabbi's rulings is just not ok.

Sadie

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 7:39 am

amother wrote:

Why on earth would being amother make someone LESS likely to think you're out to get them?
I do understand the reason for the takana and I posted earlier that I am sympathetic to the troubles that accepting geirim can cause.
I still think it's wrong and I have a right to my opinion. If I remember correctly the takana is from the 30's so you guys have had plenty of time to sort out your business between now and then.

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