What to do? s/o of OTD attention thread

amother

White

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 9:14 am

I am BT, and not leaving, BH, but I do understand her reasons to a point.

I was always peripherally cognizant of 'problems' in the FFB world and that at some point I'd feel the need to remind myself not to judge Judaism by the Jews, people are human, etc, etc. This implies that if I held them on a higher standard than I had non-Jewish society, I may be disappointed from time to time.

But as my children are approaching school age, I'm starting to see the inside of the many local insitutions and their values. And I regret to say that the amount of sickness, political corruption, poverty-leading-to-corruption, and twisted, negligent values that I've seen make me wonder where on earth I can hide and raise my children in safety and Torah normalcy. The people putting up with these 'realities' seem to have shut off their brains- they don't have good answers for me as to why their children attend, they just feel they have no choice. The people not putting up with them are also wondering where they'll put their kids when the time comes.

Maybe it's extreme where I specifically live, but from what I hear from FFB friends, 'it's everywhere'. I don't agree- the secular school systems have a lot more checks and balances, security, laws to follow, educational standards, etc. There's more transparency. Sorry, it's not 'everywhere'- it's in frum schools and communities like mine that are lawless and sketchy.

I don't see us moving to America and putting my kids in public school, because I believe in the Torah being divinely given. I need them in a school that believes that. But why does that mean I need to worry about corporeal punishment, internal institutional politics, child s-xual abuse, and safety hazards?

amother

White

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 9:47 am

amother wrote:

Sounds like you are in the charedi system. Would you put your children in a mamlachti dati torani school? No place is guaranteed, but the odds are better.

I'd never have considered it since we have a different hashkafah (a chareidi hashkafah), but after what I've seen I guess I'm more open to the idea in theory. A hashkafic threat is less extreme in this case than the threats I would encounter in these schools.

leah233

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 12:49 pm

amother wrote:

I don't see us moving to America and putting my kids in public school, because I believe in the Torah being divinely given. I need them in a school that believes that. But why does that mean I need to worry about corporeal punishment, internal institutional politics, child s-xual abuse, and safety hazards?

I can't comment on your situation because I'm unfamiliar with it but you don't have to enroll your children in public school to find an American school where you won't have to worry about corporeal punishment, internal institutional politics, child s-xual abuse, and safety hazards.

Perhaps a community like (e.g.) Passiac would be good for you.And many, many others....

debsey

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 1:54 pm

leah233 wrote:

I second this - there are many out of town communities where the values are Charedi but more liberal, where the schools are true "community schools"and where every family counts. If you're really ready to move to the US - look into communities like that, where they are actively recruiting families to join the kehilla.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 4:03 pm

amother wrote:

Sequoia, I understand your sarcasm but I've heard many times 'it's everywhere' and 'it's no better/different in America'. They may have been referring to in-town America, but out of curiosity, why does that make a difference?
Those of you who immediately mentioned out-of-town...why?

I live in Brooklyn and send to a school where I have no fear of corporal punishment or se xual abuse or anything of the things you mention.

chani8

Wed, Apr 22 2015, 4:13 pm

Exactly, OP.

OOT America is not any better, not if you remain in the charedi mainstream side of OOT. Perhaps if you're in a truly mixed community.

I really understand your wanting to find that utopia of Torah lifestyle for your family. It's not gonna happen in a community, but you can create it in your home. And either you homeschool, or you find a school that is transparent, even if that means DL, and even then, don't think there aren't problems. The difference is, when a problem happens, they hopefully deal with it properly.

Also, you don't have to beg borrow steal and give blood to get into a DL school. It's a totally different experience. They even teach personal safety, stranger danger, health, and secular studies. Your children are young so you probably cant imagine how it is to raise boys who don't learn anything but Torah. Of course, it sounds special and idealistic.

And btw, your OP shows that you are at the beginning of leaving, really. You're questioning. And if you're honest to your values, you wont be able to tolerate a closed controlling community. Not when it risks your children's well being. One more thing, the DL system is very much like the OOT american experience, except for dress code.

eta - this should be discussed in an Israel thread because only charedi israelis understand what you're talking about. It's very extreme here.

leah233

Thu, Apr 23 2015, 12:26 pm

amother wrote:

Those of you who immediately mentioned out-of-town...why?

The reasons I mentioned Passiac is because (1)the RY who all the schools answer to there is a person of such integrity that he doesn't accept any government aid for his Yeshiva nor does he allow anyone in his kollel to apply for government programs.The reason he doesn't allow it is because experience has shown that government programs have a way of leading people to fraud. Even if he or they could get them with "Glatt Yosher" standards now. With such a person the final word in a school I don't think you have the concerns you mentioned.(2)The Passaic community has a very high percentage of BTs so you probably feel socially comfortable there.

Being that in general the OOT communities have a higher percent of BTs then the in town ones, I think you are more likely to find like minded people in them

amother

White

Thu, Apr 23 2015, 3:20 pm

leah233 wrote:

Thanks for explaining that, I appreciate it.

amother

White

Thu, Apr 23 2015, 3:30 pm

chani8 wrote:

Hi, thanks for your time and advice. I just want to clarify a bit, that I'm not in the mindset that you're assuming.
I've been frum for years, and I'm beyond the phase of wanting utopia for my family. There's got to be some middle ground between these extremes and utopia.
I've been accepted to enough schools but upon closer examination, I can't send my kids there.
I don't think my boys should learn only Torah- but I don't expect the school to teach them other things, I expect most of the teaching of other subjects to fall on me or tutors.
I also don't feel I'm at the 'beginning of leaving' because like I said, my values remain the same. The bind I'm in is that I can't find a school I feel safe in, that will support those values.
Secularism, Dati Leumi(ism) or Modern Orthodoxy don't become more hashkafically valid to me as a result of these distressing circumstances. That's my problem. I guess I can choose to homeschool or send to other people's schools despite not sharing their values.

Ruchel

Fri, Apr 24 2015, 7:10 am

I really doubt most yeshivishe schools especially OOT still hit or ever hit. Nor do I believe there is more abuse. Dorms are another thing, whether they are [gentile], secular, MO, Charedi.

You can easily find cheap, accepting, OOT yeshivish schools where most are yeshivish in an opened way, great chol, and no MO is not cheaper than yeshivish...

It's NOT either chol or MO. Especially not in America (with so many Israeli mchanchim Europe is unfortunately going that way...).