50 members of family required to convert after 1960s convers

samantha87

Fri, May 15 2015, 12:13 am

This sounds crazy, but is reported elsewhere too: http://m.bhol.co.il/article.aspx?id=83548
http://www.kikar.co.il/mobile/.....70896

I wonder which American rabbi did the conversion, fifty years ago, that they are now ignoring.

How did invalidating conversions become such a thing?

mo5

Fri, May 15 2015, 12:41 am

It sounds unusual and a bit over the top, but there's probably more to the story.
I know an 'ad-hoc' Beit din (OOT) who had frum rabbis on it but were occasionally using people who were related to each other as part of the Beit din (not allowed at all).
Thank g-d this was caught after 20 something years not 50- and could be rectified (I think)
Just an example of things that could have happened in the 1960s USA

grace413

Fri, May 15 2015, 3:32 am

Quote from the JP article:

"A clerk at the Chief Rabbinate said the credentials of the rabbi who performed the conversion in the US were unknown to the body, and therefore the conversion was not recognized."

I attended a lecture by Rav David Stav, head of the Tzohar organization, this week. He said that the normative practice at the Chief Rabbinate is disqualify any rabbi not known to them.

In practical terms, this means that they do not make any attempt to actually determine if said rabbi would have met their criteria. They don't contact an American rabbi they do accept and ask if the unknown rabbi can be checked out. They just say tough luck.

mo5, no doubt that examples you gave could have happened. On the other hand, some investigation might have shown that it was indeed acceptable.

Furthermore, while it's admirable that the conversions were fast-tracked, had the family not been Charedi the results would have been different.

sunnybrook

Fri, May 15 2015, 5:24 am

I know of a Young Israel Rabbi who refused to be megayer the boyfriend of one of his congregants, but for money referred them to someone else who would. The so-called convert showed his true colors by not keeping anything whatsoever afterwards--nor did she. Their child was raised non jewish and married a [gentile]. Since this also happened in the '60's, maybe it's even the same "beis din" and good reason for the Rabbanut to not recognize....

grace413

Fri, May 15 2015, 5:30 am

sunnybrook wrote:

Excuse me. "maybe it's even the same beis din" On what basis do you make such a statement? You have actually said that because you know of a man who was converted by a beis din and did not keep mitzvot in the 60's maybe it's the same beis din and therefore should not be recognized.

Wow.

June

Fri, May 15 2015, 6:07 am

grace413 wrote:

I am chareidi but when I read the article my first thought was to wonder why they couldn't just check the Rabbi out. yes, it was from the 1960s, but I'm sure there are records that can be traced. I think it's horrible that a family who never questioned their Jewishness suddenly has to be megayer. We're in the information age - how hard can it be to research the rabbi?

(my second thought was to wonder when it would show up on imamother Smile

)

Barbara

Fri, May 15 2015, 9:31 am

sunnybrook wrote:

On the other hand, this woman, and her entire family, not only kept the minimum necessary, but were Charedim, for heaven's sake. She presumably attended a Charedi school as a child, and was accepted there. As did her siblings, many of whom were apparently married. With kids.

But this one clerk, with no evidence or reason or anything, simply de-Jewed them.

When you convert, you convert. Period. End of story. No going back and deciding, 50 years later, if the rabbi was "good enough," or who kept what, and for how long.

I always learned that once a person converted, it was never to be mentioned again. So how is this not a perversion of Judaism?

And what if this "clerk" was wrong. They were all Jews, all along. Okay for the people who re-converted. What about the 3 or 4 people they don't mention, who said "glory be, I'm a Noahide, now I finally get to weigh in on Pat's vs. Jim's vs. Geno's. Then at 120, it turns out that the clerk was a yutz, and he was a Jew all along.

Sickening, sickening, sickening.

Amarante

Fri, May 15 2015, 9:32 am

I am curious as to how a Jew who is not a convert prove they are Jewish? I ask this out of genuine curiosity because in the USA, there are no official records of one's religion.

Most Jews in the US have no official paperwork that they are Jewish. I have only the "word" of my grand parents and great grand parents that they were Jewish.

Perhaps I am missing something? If you are practicing for X generations, one would have some documents of participation in Jewish rituals but evidently these aren't enough?

Barbara

Fri, May 15 2015, 9:36 am

Amarante wrote:

They want to see the ketuba for your parents and grandparents.

Ba'al tshuva, and your parents and grandparents were married by Conservative rabbis, or a Justice of the Peace? Sorry. Your mother's side of the family may all be Kohens, and your father's side Levis, but as far at the Israeli Rabbinate is concerned, you're not a Jew.

Which is why I do not, and will not, support Israel until the Rabbinate is kicked out.

Amarante

Fri, May 15 2015, 9:46 am

Again, I might be missing something but how does a rabbi *know* I am Jewish. Again, perhaps I am missing something, but at least in the USA, my great grandparents did not have to *prove* they were Jewish when they began attending their shul. So there could be a ketuba but evidently "practicing" and having the documentation isn't enough to prove that one is Jewish.

It seems to be a circular argument - If I am not converted, I might lack sufficient proof since simply practicing for many generations isn't sufficient.

I don't think any of my friends were expected to provide proof of their Jewishness in order to participate in services so theoretically how is a rabbi able to *know* someone is Jewish.

ETA - How does a a "ketuba" or any other documentation prove one is Jewish? Is the ketuba of the grandchildren of a convert different in some way from the ketuba of non-converts?

Last edited by Amarante on Fri, May 15 2015, 10:46 am; edited 1 time in total

Ruchel

Fri, May 15 2015, 10:34 am

A friend of my husband worked at the Jewish agency. If no (kosher/at all) ketuba you can get a Judaity certificate. It will allow you marriage, emigration to Israel... now, problem is if you cannot find any witness to your family being Jewish (not frum, Jewish) say pre war or something. It happened just now to a friend's fiancé, North african, all archives lost and the village destroyed... so he's going either for giyur lechumra or giyur plain, according to the finding they will have (his parents and grandparents married secularly at the town hall).

I remember a time a bad converting rabbi would be made to stop without influence on previous conversions... they would look for any loophole esp with kids. Unless, say, it' s a "week end" conversion as it existed in those decades... this may be unsalvageable. But I know of non O conversions saved because the beis din was male and shomer shabes, of conversions where only shabbes and kosher was demanded "chagim they'll keep in time progressively"...