Painful--Sister Leaving Tznious

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sequoia

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 5:05 pm

Because Dolly is certain that her age shelters her from criticism.

Curiously enough, other respectable-age posters do not feel this way.

MagentaYenta

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 5:07 pm

sequoia wrote:

Because Dolly is certain that her age shelters her from criticism.

Curiously enough, other respectable-age posters do not feel this way.

I would think that Dolly and I are close in age. I do not harbor her stereotypes.

vintagebknyc

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 5:07 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Are you referring to my lack of love for tight waistlines? I don't mind waistlines. I just hate my own. It's too high up. I made that clear later. I think all frum wedding gowns are great; I just think it should be easier to get or make one.

Yes, sometimes I am right-ish and other times loosey-goosey left-ish, because I'm from the secular world. I am not a Beis Yakov girl. I only went BT in middle age.

My opinions aren't inside any one box; I make up my mind, one issue at a time, on the merits of that one particular issue. I don't follow party lines. So what? Aren't you supposed to use your brains as best you can on all occasions? Anyway, that's my background.

I am not advocating being mean to anybody.

I can't help noticing that this particular OP does not get very far - maybe a few inches - by being nice. Her sister insists on a showy image she knows will be strongly atypical for the setting.

Even in a secular restaurant there is a way to look very nice without burning the house down. It IS a public place. Other people HAVE also paid for intimate dinners too, not just you. Truly smoking outfits should be for private spaces, in my opinion.

But my posts are too long. I will try harder.

but YOU are mean. telling someone her sister is slutty is mean! many other things you say are mean.

amother

Emerald

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 5:07 pm

Hi The best advice that I could give you is to stop Judging her ,Stop looking at her and at what she wears , I have learned from my own expierience that when it comes to others it is not my place to judge or to tell them how not tzniusdick they are as a Young mother in law I see one of my daughter in law who I truly love like a daughter and they are dayes that she may show up not as tznius as I would want to see her , she is a beautifl girl and may wear short skirts or short sleeves may not cover her hair all the way , But I do not say anything or even give her a bad feeling that I dont aprove of how she presents herself and the reason is beacuse I want her to feel comfortable around me like a mother and I want to show her that I will always love her and am not judging her and I believe that she is just young and has probebly alot of pressure from other couples that my son and his wife are friends with and they all dress like that and within time she will understand how to dress more tzniusly beacuse she is not doing it out of spike or not to be modest this is the style now and she will grow out of it, so intead of judging her or telling her to change your cothes be a good role model fo her show her your love be her best friend and avantually she will want to be more like you and not more like her friends.

sequoia

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 5:10 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I would think that Dolly and I are close in age. I do not harbor her stereotypes.

Yeah I meant you Very Happy

Every time Dolly says something to the effect of "I'm older and I know better," you should be like "I'M older and I disagree."

amother

Black

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 5:18 pm

I have a friend like that.

She started dressing less tznuah at about 24/25 and now she's close to 40 and slowly starting to dress more tzanuah. I do want to bring out that I never ever ever mentioned anything to her or made her feel like I think less of her because of her way of dressing. It was her struggle and who was I to comment on her struggle.

How old is your sister. Maybe she's still young and exploring.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 5:26 pm

I don't expect special treatment and hope everybody says what they think. Nicely.

I got rough on OP's parents. Because this is something to consider: one should not lavish praise on prettier children. It can damage them.

OP's sister should be kind to her fellow women. Where is her sisterhood?

She probably means well and just can't be bothered, and just plain enjoys what she has always enjoyed.

Adulation is habit-forming.

She has this habit and it would be hard for her to break it.

She could, but it would take resolve and determination. As it's only bothering others, not herself, and her husband seems fine with it, there is not much motivation to change. The opinions of her sister and friends take a back seat to her husband's and her own feelings. That's normal.

It IS true that peer pressure from other young couples is very hard to resist. She has a circle of friends. She can't be different from THEM.

The other people in the restaurant, and even her own sister, well, that's not as powerful. She doesn't know those people, and her sister will love her no matter what because she's her sister.

Women MUST understand that it's like an arms race: if one of you is fabulous, the others aren't going to be left behind, so they up their look too, and then later eventually somebody else does, too. Women do not like to be the frumpy one, whom the men ignore.

In the secular world the result of this entirely natural dynamic has been tank tops and spandex bike pants, with a bare midriff. The men are weary. And nobody marries.

So there is a need for rules that restrain everybody equally.

My tone is irritated because there is an aggression going here that needs to be pointed out. It's not just personal expression. We cannot expect friendship from people if we ruin their nights out. But we do. We do. Because we are self-indulgent and don't want to be deprived of our fun.

There is a middle ground.

But this post is too long again.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 5:27 pm

"Slutty" was the sister's own word. She wore a loud, clinging dress with slits to a black hat restaurant.

Nu? Yeah. Slutty. Mean, too.

She could have obliged her sister, the OP.

I am almost always on the side of the OP. The OP is in such pain she is typing Oy oy oy. She is screaming. I wouldn't do that to a sister. Would you?

I am not saying this sister is an evil person. She is a bumptious one who could learn to be considerate. Yes, she is probably young. This is what it's LIKE when you are young. But when you have a sister telling you in plain English you are hurting her, maybe you should get a grip and pull your black linen blazer out of the back of the closet for this one occasion, and throw it over your clingy outfit. To be nice.

There is a time and place. She should have some "going out with my traditionalist sister" clothes.

November

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 5:49 pm

It can be very painful and it's human nature to judge, especially our siblings with whom we grew up. But the judging makes us feel further apart. In reality, you may become further apart because you are in different hashkafic spaces. But these are your emotions to have and to keep inside. IMO, share with your husband and that's it.

vintagebknyc

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 5:51 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

apologies on the slam for the word "slutty". as for the rest, I have no words.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 6:00 pm

I agree with November.

OP, maybe just minimize these conflicts; you don't want problems in the family.

Simply do not go out with your sister to haredi restaurants. See her at home. Or in her kind of restaurant. It is indeed important not to fight with family.

israelgirl

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 6:50 pm

vintagebknyc wrote:

dolly,
what is wrong with you? seriously, I'm curious. you post these missives that are all over the map, they all contradict each other and most are inane (the only thing your numerous posts have in common is a: length, b: the author. you'd make a lousy troll.)

I want to know why you feel it's acceptable to write the horrid things that you do.

supty

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 6:51 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I don't expect special treatment and hope everybody says what they think. Nicely.

We cannot expect friendship from people if we ruin their nights out. But we do. We do. Because we are self-indulgent and don't want to be deprived of our fun.

There is a middle ground.

But this post is too long again.

If someone's night out is RUINED because another woman in a restaurant looks hot, then that person should examine her own self esteem or relationship with her dh because that is not normal.

israelgirl

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 6:55 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I would think that Dolly and I are close in age. I do not harbor her stereotypes.

wait, so how old ARE both of you if I may ask?

amother

Aubergine

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 6:56 pm

amother wrote:

I don't know if this is helpful or not, lol, but just a note. I had a friend that got married and I saw her tznius go downhill. It was so sad. She was a frum bais Yaakov girl and all of the sudden her clothes became tighter and tighter and her skirts just just covered her knees. When I brought it up with another close friend of hers, she told me that she is actually miserable about it but this is what her husband wants and she has to adhere for shalom bayis reasons. If her husband needs her to look this way, she tries to remain within the guidelines but much less stringent than she herself would be in order so that he does not look elsewhere or not feel attracted to her. Just a thought.

Please tell your friend that this rarely works. If he doesn't love her the way he married her (more or less) he is chasing a fantasy. A fantasy that isn't about her, really.

My heart goes out to these bnos yisroel who are taught to destroy themselves to be a true aishes chayil, to a man who clearly doesn't deserve one.

vintagebknyc

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:14 pm

israelgirl wrote:

wait, so how old ARE both of you if I may ask?

I thought magenta and I were about the same age, I'm 50. I thought dolly was older, and sequioa @ 45

Maya

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:15 pm

Sequoia is a spring chicken, under 30. Smile

vintagebknyc

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:18 pm

Maya wrote:

Sequoia is a spring chicken, under 30. Smile

then I don't know anything. because you say you're 29 but you come across like a wise old soul

naturalmom5

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:22 pm

Your poor sister needs to realize that there's more to her than her looks and there's more to Judaism than tznius.

Mrs Bissli

Mon, Jun 22 2015, 7:33 pm

Do women in this website really believe in the propaganda that dressing less tzniut = signs of insecurity and low esteem? Give me a break, will ya? Having to pinpoint weak personality trait to why someone else deviates from what you consider as the norm itself seems to be a sign of insecurity. Anyway I don't see anything provocative about a women in short sleeves, above-knee skirts and hair uncovered relative to norms of society at large (unless you live in Saudi Arabia or Mea Shearim). Just saying.

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