Painful--Sister Leaving Tznious

chani8

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 3:21 am

I just want to validate your feelings, OP. Likely you're tormented by all this. Trying not to judge her, embarrassed that others might be judging her, trying not to be afraid for her doing aveiros, even feeling somewhat betrayed by her. Asking yourself, How could she do this?! Why would she do this?! Why won't she just do what is right?!

I think maybe you need to stop your panicky thoughts, and take some time to grieve about this. I mean, allow yourself to figure out and feel your feelings. Let them flood you. Allow anger, fear, betrayal, hate, sadness, whatever, to come to the surface. Perhaps write out your upsetting thoughts to get them out of your head. It might help you to write a letter to your sister, one that you don't show her, that is totally unedited by you, where you say anything and everything to get it out of your heart and head.

Then, I think your goal is to get to the point where you've separated your self from your sister, enough that you can see her as a totally separate person, not so intensely "your sister", the sister who you feel the need to protect, or who represents you and your family. Let her be herself. She's not your problem that you need to fix. What you need to fix, is how you feel about her.

When you stop 'caring' so much, stop worrying about her tznius, it will free you up to enjoy your relationship with her.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 7:32 am

OP--Sorry I didn't make this situation clear enough. I see from all the responses that I missed explaining some things. I am very close with my sister. I am older than her. She looks up to me. She wishes she had the life I have. I love her to pieces. She has this problem that she cannot muster up self-control in the area of dress. It bothers her. SHE feels bad about it. SHE wants to change. Normally, she lives in a neighborhood where her level of tzniyus is completely average. She might be prettier, but she is covering [and not covering] the same body parts as everyone else. When she comes to visit me or my parents, it is a different story. We both live in very yeshivish neighborhoods where everyone is wearing The Outfit, with minor variations. It has happened before that I ask a question about her dress and she breaks down into tears saying "I wish I could, I try to buy things that are better, but I fail, every single time. I can't fight this yetzer hara to look The Best In The World, always, it is too integral to my personality. I can't say she LIKES when I bring up her dress, and I DONT do it SO often [maybe twice a year] but she deff does not react angry, and it has never damaged our relationship. In a way, it strengthens it because we are connecting about something important and hard. And before you yell at me that I think I am perfect and my sister is terrible, not at all. She knows about my struggles as well, and believe me I have plenty.
For me, the main issue is that I want to help her be able to have self-control, but only she can do that. So I just talk from the heart, the few times it's gone too far and I can't bear it, and she tries to do what she can.
Today she was wearing a very low cut shirt, and I did not say a thing. It was enough in the ballpark--everything else was covered, that I didn't feel I had to. Just every once and a while when it is really dramatic, it just tears me to pieces, seeing her sabotage herself.

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 9:37 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Yeah, I forgot to check the colors. Causemommysaid clarified things. I'm still willing to be dlkz that you were trying to be helpful and were careful about whom you decided to share your concerns with Wink

Ok, PF, this is getting amusing. There are three amothers in this. 1 - OP, 2 - the amother who shared the story of the friend whose husband changed her standards, and 3 - my sad response to that. You commented on my post.

amother

Peach

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 10:01 am

amother wrote:

It has happened before that I ask a question about her dress and she breaks down into tears

I understand that you want to help her grow but I firmly believe, to quote my favorite seminary teacher "LO ZU HADERECH!" - this is not the way. I would not ask her a question about her dress, unless there are huge circumstances that warrant it (maybe if you were going to a shul where it was blatantly against the minhag hamakom of tznius dress.)

Have you ever asked a shaila whether you should say something to her? You are likely hurting her feelings (Onaas Devarim) when you say something, and as you clearly see, it is not helping her grow.

I learned that it says "Hocheach Tocheach Es Amisecha" and you are doing that, but remember the end of the Pasuk which is "V'lo Sisah Alav Chet." If she is not holding by making changes, then by calling her out on her dress you might be increasing the Aveirah for her (according to those who hold that this is actually a sin...not trying to say any psak here regarding tznius and it's laws) if she does not listen - something you surely don't want to do.

What you can do for your sister is - another poster mentioned and I love that - daven for her. Daven and ask Hashem to help her grow in her Avodas Hashem. And keep in mind that this will help you too - because when we daven for someone else we are answered first.

In addition, compliment her, especially when she looks really good and is wearing something more tznius. Don't mention the tznius aspect - just give an unconditional compliment (that looks really nice on you!)

amother

Green

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 12:17 pm

amother wrote:

OP--One more relevant detail--I am not bad looking myself, we actually look pretty similar. She is a bit thinner than me, but this is not a jealousy issue or that "shes the pretty one and I am the smart one" not at all.

OP, I am in the same situation --well almost. My younger sister is the way you describe your older sister. We are very, very close.

I feel that as long as she is happy, I stay out. I do ask that in front of my husband she display some sensitivity that he is not her sister. I ask to cover her hair in some way I.e. her hoodies totally work and she not sing in front of him. Beyond that, I let it go! This is her life; she is happy. She is thriving in every other way.

Funny enough, our other sibling went right wing and tells us we are wrong a whole lot. After being on the receiving end, I realize just let people be people. I am happy with the path to Hashem that I choose. Both my left and right-winged siblings are happy with theirs and feel fulfilled. What more from Hashem can I ask?

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 12:50 pm

Ouchies.

OP what you describe is pitiable and she really needs therapy.

If she has a serious internal conflict that is hurting her, and she both needs to be the Best Looking, and also does NOT, at the same time, then that is one conflicted kid, and therapy must kick in.

She says this, according to OP's exact words: "I can't fight this yetzer hara to look The Best In The World, always, it is too integral to my personality. "

It's the "always" in that sentence that is the problem. Everybody likes to look gorgeous sometimes, and quite darn fine, the rest of the time, but it's that urgency that sounds bad.

Her own hurts are much more the point than any objective ideas WE are talking about here, about our OWN ideas about dress. It doesn't matter how WE dress, it matters that this kid is hurting, in her OWN terms. Not our terms. Her own terms.

Therapy, I would say. At least she has a nice sister. That's a lot right there.

marina

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 12:51 pm

amother wrote:

Why don't you just go shopping with her? Find a fancy store that sells beautiful clothing that are a bit more acceptable in your community and have some sisterly fun shopping.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 12:54 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Interesting idea. But she would need a therapist who's sympathetic and understanding of tznius.
Personally, I don't think that's necessary. I would say, as I've said, trying to find some IRL support and mentoring. OP, I don't know where you live but have you heard of the Shmuz and R' Ben Tzion Shafier? A lot of communities are creating their own kehillos, with warm and open rabbanim and rebbetzins, geared to young couples outside a yeshiva framework. It would be wonderful to steer your sister and BIL toward such a shul.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 2:38 pm

There are plenty of frum therapists. The exact hashkafa wouldn't matter, as what's going on here isn't about hashkafa. You would want a female who herself was reasonably dressed and somewhat right leaning. If her skirt is shorter than your sister's it wouldn't be helpful. Although this is NOT about skirt length. It's about her personal conflicts on the inside.

Marina's idea is excellent.

November

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 6:32 pm

I would stay away from a shopping trip together unless she suggests it. That seems to me to be asking for conflict, either internal for your sister, and you are not her therapist, or between you two, and there's no reason to do that. If she's conflicted, she has to do the work to figure this out. I still say Stay Out and let her be. Enjoy being together and if it comes up, sympathize but don't preach. She'll figure this out because she's a big girl who has her own relationship with Hashem and His Torah.
I also think her community and friends play a big role. If this is what they are doing and how they are dressing, and she wants to fit in, Viola. My older sister is wearing shorter and shorter skirts, and I think it's directly related to what the women in her community think is cute and stylish.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 6:53 pm

Well, WRT to whether one comments or not - my ex-SIL always dressed very appropriately when she visited us. Since their divorce, she still likes to come and I try to make her feel welcome. However, she first came w/o hosiery & hat & I told her that DH is not going to feel very comfortable. She knew exactly what I meant, as she always managed to conform in the past.

What changed? Since she's no longer married to my brother, she felt she could dress her own way. But DH is as far from a kiruv person as you can get, I think, and he's just not interested in hosting people who aren't willing to respect our standards. Take it or leave it, is his attitude.

So, I gently said something. And she took it just fine.

Maya

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 7:09 pm

amother wrote:

That's what she showed outwardly, to you. But you'll never know how she really felt, and feels.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Jun 23 2015, 7:16 pm

"she breaks down into tears saying "I wish I could, I try to buy things that are better, but I fail, every single time. I can't fight this yetzer hara to look The Best In The World, always, it is too integral to my personality. I can't say she LIKES when I bring up her dress, and I DONT do it SO often [maybe twice a year] but she deff does not react angry, and it has never damaged our relationship. In a way, it strengthens it because we are connecting about something important and hard. "

To those who say "mind your own business", the above is a call for help that could hardly be any clearer.

If "I wish I could, I try" are the sister's actual words, that is a call for help.

I hear it as a call for permission or support to get professional therapy, because the relationship with OP while friendly is not getting the sister where she wants to go. So logically she needs another relationship. That would have to mean a therapeutic one.