What happened to saying excuse me?! Rant

ora_43

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 3:43 pm

Fox wrote:

We also need to get rid of this mentality of "That's the way things are in NY/Israel/East Des Moines, Iowa. You know what? It's also possible to get ham sandwiches in NY/Israel/East Des Moines. But we don't. Why should our behavior bein adam l'chavero be any different?

Some bein adam l'chavero behavior should be different, because there are some significant differences in day-to-day life. If you pass by five people on your walk into town in a small New England town, it would be rude not to acknowledge them as you pass. If you pass by 1,000 people on your way to the subway in NY, it would be ridiculous to try to acknowledge all of them as you pass.

Some things are also cultural. What looks like "everyone stampeding to the kiddush table" from a New Englander's perspective often looks like "people standing around a table, politely waiting their turn" to an Israeli, because Americans prefer a larger personal space, and Israelis prefer a smaller one.

Obviously some things are universal. As I noted in my previous post. But realizing that not everything is universal is IMHO part of the basic idea of manners. Manners is about being sensitive to other people's needs - and that means recognizing that different situations call for different behavior, based on what the people around you expect and need.

Fox

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 3:45 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

When I was in middle school in the late 1990s in Los Angeles, my school used the Project Derech workbook:
http://www.projectderech.org/w.....H.pdf

It had sections for applications of kavod vs. yirah, a section on parents, a section on teachers, etc.

I remember my classmates and I were very makpid on addressing the teacher in 3rd person, and asking for clarification ("Is it possible that the test is on Thursday, not Friday?") instead of blurting out a correction.

This is great -- it just needs to be expanded and continued as kids get older and face more adult situations.

Also, these kinds of materials have an inherent problem: in order to appeal to a wide range of schools, they have to be somewhat vague, which in turn undercuts their usefulness.

I edit the weekly newsletter for my sons' former school, and I was incredibly impressed by an article recently submitted: it described how boys in a primary grade had a pizza party. Their rebbe had taught them that Jews are required to eat in a refined manner and that using a knife and fork to cut their pizza was more dignified than simply picking it up with their hands. The accompanying photo showed all these adorable little boys sawing away at their pizza!

That kind of lesson is more valuable to kids than, "Use good manners when you eat!" It details a specific behavior, but it also instills the idea that Jews are required to maintain a higher standard regardless of the surrounding custom.

It certainly made an impression on this adult! I don't eat pizza with my hands when I'm out, but saying that is pretty faint praise. The thought of all these little boys eating in a more refined manner made me re-evaluate all kinds of lapses that had become normal to me.

Fox

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 4:07 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Yes . . . and no.

In theory, you are correct.

In practice, this is a monumental excuse for bad behavior.

I don't think anyone is unhappy because strangers aren't nodding and greeting every individual they pass on the way to the subway. Nor is anyone disturbed when an Israeli stands closer during a conversation than a North American might.

But if you experience people cutting in line; racing to be first at a kiddush; pushing, shoving, or conniving to get something before anyone else can . . . well, your "culture" or "community" has a halachic problem.

The problem may be a small minority of people or it may be a culturally-sanctioned manner of behavior. Regardless, it is in contradiction to the Torah. A frum Jew is simply not allowed to cut in line or push/shove others out of your way, no matter how accepted it might be in your community.

So we have a few choices:

We can argue back and forth over the identity of the worst offenders, which, as other posters have pointed out, is completely irrelevant.

We can argue that we haven't noticed any problem. That says more about our own observance or lack thereof than anything else.

Or we can say, "Wow! It sounds like a significant number of people were absent from school for ten or twelve years and somehow missed learning that it's an isser d'orisa to cut in line. Or perhaps their schools didn't teach those halachos for some reason. Sounds like our communities need to fill in the gaps somehow."

#1 is always fodder for a good fight, and #2 just means that all those prejudices and stereotypes will be reinforced.

Since most of us (including the handful of teenage boys posting on Intimacy threads) identify as observant Jews, I would assume that option #3 would be the most consistent with our values.

techiemom

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 8:30 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

I don't know what the online argument is all about.

Go sort your own communities out instead of coming on here and having some kind of competition about which communities are worst behaved and who cares the least or the most.

This discussion is heading nowhere except to stir up negativity and bad feelings between fellow jews.

Actually, I wanted to know as a teacher and a community member if there were ways people can think of to make a difference. I am still learning about being frum and didn't know that halachos of bein adam lechaveiro would fall into a different category than derech eretz. I know enough from this discussion to go back and talk to our principal and even the girls. I don't only teach my subjects, I like to teach life skills, too.

33055

Mon, Jul 06 2015, 11:31 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

How do you propose as women we sort out our communities when all leadership positions are held by men except through media? Women only have what voice men give them. We aren't to be seen or heard unless it is in the proscribed manner. Our voices will be silenced the way our faces are photo shopped out.

I spoke about my community. I care about my community, but I am not blind to the faults of it. It may appear I was damming skvare with faint praise, but I had no intention of that. I truly mean that I admire them addressing the problem of rudeness with classes in manners. I think this is wonderful.

When I speak of rudeness in Monsey, I experience it daily. Perhaps I am sensitized to the frum guy who parks in my driveway because he fenced in his own driveway and yard. Perhaps that sets me off having to come and get him to move so I can get out of my garage. He acts put upon that I don't want him there. This isn't normal to me. It is alien behavior. This man is not chassidish so I find the behavior is not limited to one group.

Perhaps I am wrong expecting civilized behavior from this town because this is how I grew up and how I lived as an adult. Why isn't this craziness in other parts of Rockland? Why aren't people pushing and shoving in New City?

Besides sites like this, where can insulated people learn there are other points of views? I don't ever think you will change everyone, but perhaps like Techiemom others will be thinking how to pass this along.

oliveoil

Tue, Jul 07 2015, 12:09 am

Squishy wrote:

You clearly despise your community, the people, the schools, pretty much everything about it. So why are you there?

If I was that miserable somewhere, to the point that for years I consistently used every opportunity possible to write about it, complain about it, try to convince other people about it, I sure as heck wouldn't be sticking around.

5mom

Tue, Jul 07 2015, 2:39 am

Squishy wrote:

I do not and would not live in this kind of community, so feel free to ignore me, but don't you think that mothers have influence over their children? I have seen women with children pushing in line and speaking rudely to workers. Why not start there? A little boy who learns to wait his turn and to thank store clerks is not likely to grow up into a man who blocks his neighbor's driveway.
Let's unleash mother power!

ora_43

Tue, Jul 07 2015, 6:46 am

Fox wrote:

I don't think anyone is unhappy because strangers aren't nodding and greeting every individual they pass on the way to the subway. Nor is anyone disturbed when an Israeli stands closer during a conversation than a North American might.

I disagree. In my experience, Americans are often upset at Israeli "pushiness" what what's going on isn't literal pushing, it's more like crowding together. That's a personal space issue. Like with getting on buses - I've lived here for a long time and I've only seen literal pushing to get on a bus, like, twice, if that. But if you ask many Americans they'll say Israelis always push their way onto the bus.

And the issue of whether to repeatedly say "excuse me" in a situation where jostling is inevitable is very similar to the issue of whether to greet people you pass.

Quote:

But if you experience people cutting in line; racing to be first at a kiddush; pushing, shoving, or conniving to get something before anyone else can . . . well, your "culture" or "community" has a halachic problem.

My point was that nobody thinks pushing or cutting in line is OK, but people tend to define it differently. In the southern states, you can go ahead and stare into space for 5-10 seconds before people assume you're not in line and move forward; in Israel or NYC, you can only do that for 2-5 seconds. But everyone in Israel, NYC, and Alabama agrees that you can't go forward after just 1 second, and that you can after 15 seconds.

(Like I said before, the correct way to handle that situation is to ask the person standing around if they were waiting. And that's what polite people do in Israel.)

I agree that it's very important for people to learn the halachot of day-to-day interactions (the book you suggested seems to be out of print, BTW). I just think that when we compare cultures, it's important to look at circumstances. L'havdil, but for example, you can't say Americans are more peaceful than Syrians - maybe they are, or maybe they just haven't been tested.

Fox

Tue, Jul 07 2015, 10:46 am

ora_43 wrote:

My point was that nobody thinks pushing or cutting in line is OK, but people tend to define it differently.

I agree that certain actions may be defined differently based on culture; that's not my real concern. My real issue is that people frequently attempt to categorize the action itself as okay based on culture.

For example, it's perfectly okay to say, "A lot of times Americans think that Israelis are pushing and shoving in line when, in fact, they just have different ideas about personal space."

But it's not okay to say, "In Israel, it's not such a big deal to cut in line. That's the way Israelis are."

The first example explains how a behavior might be interpreted as something it's really not; the second example attempts to excuse a halachically-prohibited act.

We're not allowed to cut in line. At the very least, doing so makes us guilty of theft (of time) and aggrieving another. It doesn't matter whether your culture sees the practice as "bad manners" or "capital offense" -- it's a serious prohibited act.

ora_43 wrote:

I agree that it's very important for people to learn the halachot of day-to-day interactions (the book you suggested seems to be out of print, BTW). I just think that when we compare cultures, it's important to look at circumstances. L'havdil, but for example, you can't say Americans are more peaceful than Syrians - maybe they are, or maybe they just haven't been tested.

Well, obviously halachos have to be interpreted based on contemporary situations. That's why the halachos of shopping can be complex; the way we buy things has changed enormously just in the last half-century.

But if you're arguing that cutting in line, for example, isn't so bad if it's the norm in a given community, then I have to disagree. That's not how halacha works.

And that underscores the reason I keep returning to beat this comatose horse on life support: A significant percentage of the things people complain about when they discuss "bad manners" are *really* halachos. The person who cuts in line isn't simply ill-mannered, he's publicly transgressing halacha. And it's time we said so.

33055

Tue, Jul 07 2015, 12:53 pm

oliveoil wrote:

You are so wrong. If I hated my community like you think I do, I wouldn't care about child safety, children's education, rudeness, protecting molestation victims against harassment and the education of business ethics.

You are allowed to love a community and also look at how it can be improved within the existing framework. I am not seeking to overturn anything, but merely to bring an awareness that things need improving. It is those with blinders on that allow bad things to continue. The first step to solving a problem is acknowledging it exists.

33055

Tue, Jul 07 2015, 1:00 pm

5mom wrote:

I agree with you. The problem is that the moms need this awareness.

BTW my driveway isn't just blocked. My neighbor parks in my actual driveway.

Fox

Tue, Jul 07 2015, 2:09 pm

5mom wrote:

Mothers have influence when children are young, so that's definitely a starting point. But research shows that parents' influence declines significantly as kids reach the teen years. I suspect that effect is exaggerated in Jewish communities where teenage boys often go away to yeshiva.

So Mom may have taught her son to say 'please' and 'thank you,' but if his rebbe is an inconsiderate driver, those lessons may impact his adult behavior more.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 07 2015, 2:13 pm

Fox wrote:

Is the rebbe taking the boy for his (the boy's) 50 hours of supervised driving time before he gets his license?
Still lot of opportunities for the d'mos d'yokno shel horav imprint Very Happy

Fox

Tue, Jul 07 2015, 2:47 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Is the rebbe taking the boy for his (the boy's) 50 hours of supervised driving time before he gets his license?
Still lot of opportunities for the d'mos d'yokno shel horav imprint Very Happy

A lot of boys don't get their licenses until they're past the age requiring supervised driving (obviously depends on the state you're in).

I just mention this because Imamother tends to skew very, very young, and mothers of small children sometimes overestimate the amount of influence they'll have in the future.

Of course, that's not a reason for parents to throw up their hands -- just a realistic caution about the importance of one's surroundings.

5mom

Tue, Jul 07 2015, 2:51 pm

Fox wrote:

I have older kids, and you are right that teens are more influenced by their peers than their parents. But get a critical mass of teenagers all raised to be polite, and that becomes the norm.