Would you let the baby's grandfather be sandik if...

Bruria

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 12:47 am

If he was abusive to you, I don't see why he would deserve this honor.Can his other grandfather be sandek? Or your rav? Like others said, you don't owe any explanations to other people, you know better what is good for you and your family.

amother

Lavender

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 1:14 am

At the risk of sounding redundant and thick headed, I would like to bring up more of my feelings. This is kind of therapeutic for me.
If society expects someone to be treated a certain positive way, and they do something wrong, so they lose the privilege of being treated that way?
What about the fact that I would be announcing to the world that I have an issue wih my father?
Btw, I am taking this side only because it is clear as day to everyone that the other way is correct, and I don't see it so clearly. I am trying to dispel the illogical thoughts and feelings.

groisamomma

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 1:29 am

In the last century people suppressed their feelings and allowed society to manipulate them into keeping such people on a pedestal in public lest they are shamed. We now know that doing so further victimizes the victim and I believe that that's why so many victims of abuse in those days never healed.

Bitachon101

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 1:35 am

You can do as some have suggested by having an important rav come and be sandek.
Nobody would question why a rav is doing instead of your father and you can save face that way without shaming him openly.
I'm sure if you explained to a Rav of stature the situation they would be glad to help you in this mitzvah.

brocha1

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 2:22 am

Mazal tov for your baby .If u don't mind me asking where's your mother in this situation .also I would write a letter to your father and be honest and say after the abuse u put me through the past years I will not be honouring u with sandak if u come to the simcha which is your choice I will be choosing someone else. Then choose who u want .trust me im sure people no what you're father is like unless he's great at covering up .put your family first which is your husband and baby Mazal tov

brocha1

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 2:22 am

sped

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 4:54 am

Do you want him there at all? This is not within the category of basic Kibud Av obligations. (IIRC, you just need to be sure he is fed, clothed and with a roof over his head - and that this can be in any setting.) I can't imagine dealing with this just after birth.
How does your husband feel about this?

amother

Yellow

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 5:25 am

hila wrote:

Get around the problem by having an important Rav there and give him Sandek.

My thoughts exactly. And it is what we did.
In our community the "norm" is to ask FiL to do it. Only my FIL was abusive to DH his entire life and has tortured me enough since I got married. I've read and heard a lot about the influence a sandak has on the baby. I'm not the spiritual type, yet I couldn't bring myslef to give my precious baby such a person as a sandak. Dh felt it would be shameful to his fahter if my father was the sandak when it's not the norm.
So we asked a very very chashuv a rav to be the sandak. No questions asked.
Is it at all possible that if you do that you will avoid the public shaming? becuase it does sound really hurtful the way you are putting it.
(sorry fi someone has already written the above- I have'nt read all the replies yet)

Mazal tov!!!

rowo

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 6:10 am

Anothe vote for no.
This is your simcha, you don't have to knowingly make it difficult for yourself.
As many have already said it is common to give the honour to elderly family members or Choshuve rabbonim.
For example my father was recently sandek for the first time, with the fifth grandson. No one thought it was strange that he hadn't been sandek until then.

finallyamommy

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 7:31 am

Your first responsibility is to your baby. Don't let your baby near an abuser.

And I speak from experience, of being abused and having other adults in my life who were aware and able but unwilling to step in and put a stop to it.

Laiya

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 8:19 am

amother wrote:

Only he is responsible for his behavior and its consequences.

And yes, treating your daughter abusively her whole life results in her not giving you sandik at her baby's bris; perhaps not even inviting you to the bris.

Also, I just think it's so sad that you shouldn't be able to enjoy your own simcha. He's caused you enough pain.

And one more thing. Do you want this man (whom you can't even bring yourself to refer to as your father) to be a part of this baby's life? Giving him a kibud now may set a precedent where he thinks he has a right to be part of things, that may be difficult to un-do.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 8:21 am

sped wrote:

Just wanted to add, re the kibud av obligations--clothing, feeding etc. your parents, using THEIR money!

lakewood mom

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 8:45 am

I feel giving him the kibbud is sort of dismissing the fact of what he did to you. It's sweeping it under the rug which is something our communities still do- but bh are becoming more aware of abuse... Stand up for yourself and your baby! Those guilty feelings are part of your abuse and hormones. Giving the kibbud to him means he won!!

amother

Coral

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 8:50 am

I had this situation

we did not give my father sandek even though he came to the bris

dh says that the sandek at the bris has a impact on the child later in life.

I don't know if my father was hurt but I did what we felt was right.
(at least I invited him to the bris )

amother

Taupe

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 8:56 am

The point is , dearest op that you do not need to be worried about shaming or giving kavod to your abuser. We have all endured enough of our own shame. In fact, according to my therapist, getting rid of our shame goes a long way towards healing.
I do however understand if you might feel reluctant to 'air your issues in public' . If you're worried ppl might wonder about you, and whyou you did not give the honor to him, then do as others suggested and give it to a great uncle, a rabbi, or even someone from out of town who traveled in for the simcha. Or someone on your husband's side if possible.
But that is only to make yourself comfortable.

LittleRed

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 9:11 am

Hi op, I think you're getting a lot of good advice here but in terms of clearing up your thoughts I just wanted to say that if you asked him to be sandek you're not doing something 'wrong'. We are supposed to work on ourselves to do that which is difficult but there's a difference between putting aside some old upset and letting someone have some kavod for the sake of shalom or middos work and letting someone have involvement because you feel pressured or guilty or embarassed or whatever if it will be horribly upsetting during and after.
Everyone here is trying to help you protect yourself in a normal way. Don't let yourself think it's revenge/pettiness because to me, that's your yetzer hara.

imasoftov

Tue, Sep 08 2015, 9:29 am

amother wrote:

Here is the situation:
This man was abusive to me when I was growing up. This man was in my nightmares for years. I get sick to my stomach when I see him. He hurt me in ways that no one else can.

I stay far away from him, and only interact with him when obligated halachically. When discussing with a rav, I was told that I don't have to give him sandik, but it would be preferable, and the reward would be great.

The reason is because it is expected that he receive this honor and it would be publicly shaming him if he doesn't get it. Again, I don't have to even have him by my simcha, but if I want to do the most correct thing, it would be to give him sandik.

This is most definitely a case of לפום צערה

What would you do in such a situation?

Not let him show up in the first place. Station people to evict him if he shows up anyway. Tell the rav that there has been enough צערה already and I am content with the reward I will receive for that. If that doesn't work, tell him that the best chance of my not telling the whole world what he did would be not having him there.

What have you been taught are situations where halacha obligates you to interact with him?

Last edited by imasoftov on Tue, Sep 08 2015, 11:14 am; edited 1 time in total