Why is it bad to live in an Anglo bubble

amother

Red

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 3:23 am

Why is it bad to live in an Anglo bubble? What's so great about Israeli culture? I am not saying that people shouldn't learn Hebrew, get jobs, interact with their non Anglo neighbors, go to the army, etc. But why is making "Aliyah" and being Israeli so much better than making Aliyah and being American. As long as you can support your family and your kids have nice friends and are well adjusted isn't it better to live in Israel and Live in a Jewish country rather than live in Chul because you can't be an Israeli? What's the big deal. Is it so important to learn to be pushy and rude and aggressive?

water_bear88

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 3:29 am

I've met a handful of people who were BORN in Israel whose English is significantly better than their Hebrew. I get away with my accent and glaring grammatical mistakes because I made Aliyah as a young adult. There's no way I would inflict the language barrier on my kids just for my own comfort.

That said, I don't think you need to move somewhere where your kids won't hear any English. Just that there needs to be enough Hebrew that the non-Anglo Israeli kids aren't speaking English amongst themselves.

Iymnok

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 3:48 am

Your kids will be happier to be part of the system. I feel such an accomplishment when I can express myself and properly communicate with teachers, neighbors, workers, in government offices...
My kids have friends in the whole class. My 3 year olds best friend is Israeli even though there are other Anglos in the class.
They are all fluent in English. I will teach them to read and write English.
I don't value American society enough to make it part of their lives.
(Though I did sing "doe, a deer" to my daughter after her first music lesson!)

DrMom

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 4:03 am

If you live somewhere and cannot relate to the "natives" and are uncomfortable in the native language, you will have a hard time living there. You will no be able to appreciate shared cultural experiences, you will have difficulty navigating daily life, etc. You will be a permanent outsider.

It is okay to retain one's native culture. I certainly wouldn't tell someone immigrating to the US from, say, India: "Oh, just eat the stupid hamburger already! Everyone in the US eats MEAT!! And nix that sari and get yourself a decent pair of jeans! This is AMERICA!"

Sure, we gravitate to people similar to us. It is natural to want to b with other Americans (or Brtis or S. Africans or whatever you are). But it is no fun spending life only partially functional due to poor language skills. And it is very isolating to lack the skills to make close friends with people who are not exactly like you.

Also, it is kind of silly to say that all Israelis are pushy and rude. Kind of like claiming all Americans are ignorant gun-toting cowboys.

etky

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 4:47 am

amother wrote:

Some Israelis are pushy and rude and aggressive. Many are not. Many are just more expressive in a way that comes off to people from a more formal and impersonal society as being aggressive.
Really, I wonder if you could get away with that kind of offensive, negative stereotyping if you were talking about any other society or ethnic group?
Why is it Ok to put down Israel and Israelis that way?
As for the questions that you raised -I think Dr. Mom answered them beautifully.

momaleh

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 5:31 am

My kids have all been born here and yes we live in a very anglo area. All my kids speak Hebrew probably better than English. I sometimes feel like I've lost my english but can' speak Hebrew all that well, so I'm kind of languageless Smile

The anglo bubble works for me - I have friends and a life in my native and comfortable language and culture, but there is no doubt about the fact that we live in Israel. My kids have equal friends that are anglo and Israeli, it's not an issue at all. If not for the bubble, I don't I'd be in E"Y. To each their own - it works great for my family and most that I know here.

Sanguine

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 6:40 am

Quote:

Is it so important to learn to be pushy and rude and aggressive?

That's the problem. If you're thinking Israelis are pushy and rude and aggressive you must feel like you're in a foreign country. Israelis are nosy and intrusive, kind of like your MIL. It's always hard to accept that your MIL is like that cause she loves you but she thinks she knows better than you cause she has more life experience, and is quick to point it out. Change is hard.

Israel is a unique country. Everyone is Jewish. We're like one big family. We don't all get along all the time, but we really care about each other. Tourists aren't part of the family. If you're keeping yourself outside the society you're not experiencing the beauty of a Jewish state. You'll be annoyed at the way that nothing is done till "After the Chagim". If you feel like it's your home you go with the flow. That's good for the family.

America is the Big Meting Pot. Everyone lives their own lives (I really never cared about the farmers in Iowa). But here in the Jewish state every Jew thinks that they're the owner of the country. That's why Israelis act like they're the boss. We all think things should run our way (that's why there's so much politics). There's nothing wrong with making your own corner comfortable, but why wouldn't you want to be part of the big picture? It's your country too. Israelis seem pushy and rude and aggressive if you're not part of the family. We Israelis are a very close knit family. If you're part of the "family", we don't have to agree on everything, we can fight and call each other names, but deep down we're family. It's not the same with guests. You have to be part of the family. Why would you want to be an outsider?

We're the immigrant generation just like your Bubby from Poland. She could still make gefilte fish in any country but you're limiting what you can do in life if you don't become part of the society. Israel is still a young and small country. Anyone can become Prime Minister. Everyone can make a difference here. It's Our home. Those Israelis aren't so pushy and rude and aggressive when you feel like you're part of their family.

Quote:

Why is it bad to live in an Anglo bubble? What's so great about Israeli culture?

It's very helpful for Anglo Olim to live with other Anglos. And even after you're here a long time, it's like your HS friends. They'll always be your bestest friends and understand you best, but you have to move up and outgrow 11th grade. If you want to be happy you'll hold onto what got you here, but you'll take the brave steps to break away from the security of HS.

juggling

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 6:49 am

amother wrote:

The bubble can work....up to a point. Where it fails is when you are forced to interact in the wider community - with bureaucracy, with hospitals etc, where you can't choose your language - so if you and your kids want to be able to fully function on all levels in the society in which you live, you need the language tools!

I don't think anyone's bubble is really that thick. I live in an Anglo bubble, for sure. And I have often needed to interact with the wider community. I really manage just fine, because we don't exactly have a choice.

juggling

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 6:55 am

momaleh wrote:

Pretty much what I was thinking. Obviously better integration is a good tool for the kids who get it. But the Israelis are going to be forever jealous of my kids' English skills. There are advantages to moving outside the bubble, but if the bubble is what gets you to stay in Israel (or to be happy about it) it's really not the big evil some people make it out to be. Do what works for you and your family.

amother

Khaki

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 6:58 am

I also don't see the problem with the Anglo Bubble.
I am the first generation Israeli, having made aliya a few years ago with my family. I love Israeli culture and I wouldn't mind living anywhere else but I don't think I'm harming my family by living in RBS.
Their Hebrew is just fine, I guess would be "finer" if they used it during recess and home time as well. But so what? That is the beauty of aliya. We have, g-d willing, all the time in the world. So my Hebrew is laughable. Theirs could be better. Maybe their kids' or grandkids' will be perfect and their English laughable.
I consider myself so lucky to have taken this step so that my children and their children can reap the benefits. So what if it takes a few generations to reap them completely?

etky

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 7:10 am

juggling wrote:

It's not evil or morally reprehensible in any way. The bubble has its benefits, especially in the early years of acclimation.
Much depends on the language skills that you will acquire. Lack of Hebrew is a huge impediment to feeling part of this society. Mastering the language should be a very high priority for anyone who makes aliya, regardless of where they intend to live.
I think though that as long as your kids are not being compromised in any way then do what's good for you.

amother

Seashell

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 7:19 am

I don't live in any sort of Anglo bubble. I live in an Israeli community, with maybe 15 people I can think of who speak English perfectly or spent a significant amount of time in America.

There are definite advantages. The main one is that I'm picking up Hebrew and Israeli culture much more quickly than I would if I lived amongst more Anglos. I like learning a different culture. It's so interesting! My child (a toddler) isn't going to have to make an official English to Hebrew transition b/c she's already in Hebrew gan and she's under 2! American and Israeli culture each has its own problems. Do I really want my children to have the problems of both? I'd rather pick one and since I live in Israel, I'll choose Israeli ones.

Also, I must say, I miss having English speaking doctors. While my Hebrew is definitely passable in everyday situations, it's hard when I need to tell over precise information that often involves words I don't know.

juggling

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 7:23 am

etky wrote:

With the exception of people who don't have kids and either don't work or don't work with Israelis, I think everyone "masters" the language to some extent. Like I said, I live in a very Anglo area and my social circle is almost exclusively Anglo. I use Hebrew very, very often.

And as far as the next generation, my kids would have better Hebrew if we lived in a less Anglo area. But their Hebrew is quite passable. They do go to school here, and their classwork is the same as in any other school in the country. And I know plenty of Anglo kids in our neighborhood who prefer Hebrew over English.