I am LIVID! | Imamother

5mom

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 4:54 pm

goodmorning wrote:

It's exactly as he defines it in the second halacha that I quoted: היה לפניו עשיית מצוה ותלמוד תורה--אם אפשר למצוה להיעשות על ידי אחרים, לא יפסיק תלמודו; ואם לאו, יעשה המצוה ויחזור לתורתו

If someone has the choice to do a mitzvah or learn Torah, if the mitzvah could be done by someone else, he should not stop his learning; if not, he should do the mitzvah and then return to his learning.

Clearly, earning a living and engaging in communal affairs were mitzvos that were not "efshar lihei'asos al yidei acheirim." When he says that learning is "k'neged kol hamitzvos," he doesn't mean that it's at the expense of all else, but he does mean that it takes priority over all else (if the rest can be done by someone else).

The Rambam didn't send his wife out to work. He was not the only doctor or rabbi in Cairo. Not to mention that he spent time studying philosophy. He clearly did things that others could have done.

Yet these were not the core of his identity. Torah was. That's what priority means. It doesn't mean shirking responsibility in other areas of life.

(BTW, I only quoted the halacha about young kids not leaving school to show that he thought that school hours were a priority. It's true that the op's son is over bar mitzvah, but you get a sense of the priorities and decision making process.)

goodmorning

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 5:01 pm

water_bear88 wrote:

OP, thanks for answering my question! I'll amend it, if anyone still has a sourced answer, to: does any positive commandment other than pikuach nefesh docheh meit mitzvah?

(eta spelling)

Well, meis mitzvah is not doche Shabbos (Yevamos 7a), which is counted as an asei in addition to a lo sa'asei (Rambam Sefer HaMitzvos 154, Sefer HaChinuch 85, see Minchas Chinuch there). So shevisah b'Shabbos is a mitzvas asei that is doche meis mitzvah.

Of course, meis mitzvah is doche many mitzvos, asei and lo sa'asei: talmud Torah, korbanos, megillah (Megillah 3b); tumas kohen, tumas nazir, Korban Pesach and bris b'zmano (Nazir 47-48).

I will repeat, though, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, that this is all completely tangential to the OP. The niftar under discussion was in need of a minyan but NOT a halachic meis mitzvah.

goodmorning

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 5:05 pm

5mom wrote:

Not to nitpick, but the Rambam lived in twelfth century Muslim society, where it was uncommon for women to leave their homes more than once a month. He couldn't have "sent his wife out to work," no matter how much he would have liked to (I am not saying that he would have liked to, just that even if he had, he couldn't have). Given his halachic opinions about wives working, she probably worked inside the house (sewing/weaving/etc.) but that presumably wouldn't have been a sufficient household income.

If you'll look at the Rambam's views on philosophy, he clearly felt that his study of philosophy was part and parcel of his learning Torah. Others very much disagreed with his views in this area, but that's kind of irrelevant.

I never said, nor do I intend to, that prioritizing Torah study means shirking responsibilities. The point of the question of "efshar lihei'asos al yidei acheirim" is to determine whether the mitzvah in question is in fact the Torah studier's responsibility.

amother

Maroon

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 6:27 pm

I used the word LIVID because my ds should have been feeling like a million bucks for fulfilling this mitzvah and instead he was worried that he did something against halacha. It was like he had a beautiful plate of food being served and the Rebbi spit in it. And I guess LIVID because its not the first time the rebbi/principal has negated positive feelings when ds has done something good.

chocolate fondue

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 7:31 pm

5mom wrote:

How do you show that the Rambam 'thought that school hours are a priority' from a halacha about tinokos shel beis raban? These are two totally different things.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 10:15 pm

boysrus wrote:

not sure how helpful this post is.... Confused

maybe refrain from passing judgement on the OP's choice of language if you haven't even bothered reading her post....

No. I'm not passing judgment, I'm commenting on the fact that it is never a good idea to get to that degree of anger, unless I am misinterpreting the use of the word. To me it implies furiously can't-control-myself white-hot angry, and as a whole in life, I do not think it is wise to let circumstances get you to that degree of anger. That's all. You can disagree with me and that's okay too.

amother

Orange

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 10:20 pm

amother wrote:

Why on earth are u keeping him in a school which is obviously so against many of your principles?? Have u considered switching him??

Last edited by amother on Wed, Mar 13 2019, 4:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

yksraya

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 11:04 pm

amother wrote:

feelings can't be controlled, it's what a person feels. However we can control our actions not to act upon our feelings.
so when someone says they are hurt, angry etc you can't say "don't feel".

OP didn't do anything bad with her feeling livid, she didn't hurt anyone.
she was just aknowledging her feelings instead of ignoring them.

amother

Periwinkle

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 11:40 pm

amother wrote:

I keep him there because the actual rabbeim that he has are awesome.

Yes, but the administration behind them is clearly pushing two hashkofos that you don't agree with, namely, 1) learn even when it violates a chiyuv, and, 2) teach children to disrespect their parents.

I'm sure that you can understand why some of us are having a difficult time processing your decision.

amother

Periwinkle

Thu, Nov 19 2015, 11:43 pm

amother wrote:

I have many friends who took the same attitude on their sons' schooling. Today, they don't understand why their sons refuse to get jobs and pay their own bills.

Your son spends more waking hours in school than he does at home. If you think that the minimal amount of time that he spends with you can counter the majority of time that he spends in Yeshiva, you are sadly mistaken.

5mom

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 12:55 am

goodmorning wrote:

.

Indeed, the current kollel situation owes a lot to second-wave feminism. Thanks, Gloria Steinem. However, poor women have always worked, and there is plenty of evidence for working women in medieval Egypt, among the lower classes. But the Rambam was apparently not willing to degrade his wife. So he worked himself.

(Obviously social realities change and halacha often changes with them. But that's not a popular position in every circle.)

And yes, of course the Rambam thought that studying philosophy was essential for being a Jew. But as you say, many disagree. Couldn't someone else have studied Aristotle and al-Farabi and summarized it for him? No, he did it himself.

The Rambam's talents were well known in his time. He could very well have said that his learning took priority over his other obligations. Other people could have provided medical care and/or communal leadership, but he did these things himself.

So while the Rambam wrote that narrowly speaking, it's best to assign a mitzvah to someone who is not in the middle of learning, he lived his life in a way that leaves no doubt that he would have disapproved of the lifestyle being promoted by op's son's yeshiva.