I am LIVID! | Imamother

Happydance

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 2:02 am

amother wrote:

Yes, but the administration behind them is clearly pushing two hashkofos that you don't agree with, namely, 1) learn even when it violates a chiyuv, and, 2) teach children to disrespect their parents.

I'm sure that you can understand why some of us are having a difficult time processing your decision.

what you fail to realize that
1) there was NO chiyuv here (other than the chiyuv of limmud torah)
2) the principal did not imply that the boy disrespect his parents, rather that he could have asked a sheila of what should be done in that scenario. NOT disrespectful.

If OP chooses a school, she should be conforming to their hashkafa and not being LIVID that the school is not conforming to hers...

Happydance

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 2:58 am

5mom wrote:

.

Indeed, the current kollel situation owes a lot to second-wave feminism. Thanks, Gloria Steinem. However, poor women have always worked, and there is plenty of evidence for working women in medieval Egypt, among the lower classes. But the Rambam was apparently not willing to degrade his wife. So he worked himself.

(Obviously social realities change and halacha often changes with them. But that's not a popular position in every circle.)

And yes, of course the Rambam thought that studying philosophy was essential for being a Jew. But as you say, many disagree. Couldn't someone else have studied Aristotle and al-Farabi and summarized it for him? No, he did it himself.

The Rambam's talents were well known in his time. He could very well have said that his learning took priority over his other obligations. Other people could have provided medical care and/or communal leadership, but he did these things himself.

So while the Rambam wrote that narrowly speaking, it's best to assign a mitzvah to someone who is not in the middle of learning, he lived his life in a way that leaves no doubt that he would have disapproved of the lifestyle being promoted by op's son's yeshiva.

Why do you assume that the Rambam wife wasnt working as well? She most probably was working full time providing food for her family. (farming, preserving, grinding, milling...)

and The Rambam's talents were well known precisely because of his incredible intellectual abilities and that there, in fact, were NOT others as competent as him available

And even as a doctor he spent huge amounts of his time learning, otherwise he could not have accomplished as much as he did

5mom

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 3:32 am

[quote="rlm"]Why do you assume that the Rambam wife wasnt working as well? She most probably was working full time providing food for her family. (farming, preserving, grinding, milling...)

and The Rambam's talents were well known precisely because of his incredible intellectual abilities and that there, in fact, were NOT others as competent as him available

And even as a doctor he spent huge amounts of his time learning, otherwise he could not have accomplished as much as he did[/quote

Both his life and his writings show us a man who valued work and communal responsibility. Read his letter to Ibn Tibbon.

water_bear88

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 3:32 am

goodmorning wrote:

Well, meis mitzvah is not doche Shabbos (Yevamos 7a), which is counted as an asei in addition to a lo sa'asei (Rambam Sefer HaMitzvos 154, Sefer HaChinuch 85, see Minchas Chinuch there). So shevisah b'Shabbos is a mitzvas asei that is doche meis mitzvah.

Of course, meis mitzvah is doche many mitzvos, asei and lo sa'asei: talmud Torah, korbanos, megillah (Megillah 3b); tumas kohen, tumas nazir, Korban Pesach and bris b'zmano (Nazir 47-48).

I will repeat, though, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, that this is all completely tangential to the OP. The niftar under discussion was in need of a minyan but NOT a halachic meis mitzvah.

I'm not talking about the need for a minyan as far as his being a meit mitzvah- I'm talking about the need for someone to carry the aron.

5mom

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 8:25 am

aleph wrote:

What confuses me is this.... A man should not go to do a mitzvah rather than learn if someone else can do it.

But shouldn't that "someone else" also learn rather than do the mitzvah?

Who is that "someone else" in this case?

It's a question of interrupting whatever you are already doing. If you are in the middle of learning, you can sometimes give the job to someone else. But when you are not actively involved in learning, you are as obligated as anyone else.

yksraya

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 8:33 am

5mom wrote:

in this specific case he wasn't learning yet. He went to yeshiva late. So he didn't interupt learning.

Although I'm not saying one shouldn't interupt learning in such a case, I think one definetely should.

Dandelion1

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 9:04 am

5mom wrote:

OK.... So then if you have a room full of people learning and someone runs in and says "We need immediate help with such and such a mitzvah", then the 2 guys who were eating lunch should be the ones to go, rather than the ones who were actively engaged in the page of gemara at that moment. Or if you are looking for people to do an important mitzvah, don't run into the Bais Midrash if there is a grocery store next door.

But I can't see how it would mean that people who usually go to learn but aren't at the moment should refuse to help out by saying "My next door neighbor Shmerel supports his 9 kids by doing carpentry work..... Go find him instead....."

In other words, if someone has an open chumash and is studying Torah at that moment, ask the one who is tieing his shoelaces to help instead.

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 9:38 am

amother wrote:

I did not read one word of this thread, just wanna comment that the title itself throws me off - whatever it is that's upsetting you, don't be livid. Certainly not LIVID in caps. Not a helpful emotion.

Oh, so let me tell you what it's about.
OP's son's rebbe said that the mitzvah of mechiyas Amalek exists TODAY and homework is a list of neighborhood people to attack.

(Seriously, how can you be so sure without reading one word of this thread? Scratching Head

)

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 9:53 am

amother wrote:

I keep him there because the actual rabbeim that he has are awesome.

I get this. Many noted mechanchim, such as Rabbi Orlowek, advocating keeping children local, providing the home is a reasonably healthy environment, even if the school isn't a perfect fit. If you're feeling too much conflict, you might want to try to contact someone such as Rabbi Orlowek. I think you can still make this work but it will take some strategizing.

Awesome rebbeim is a powerful factor, IMO.

goodmorning

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 9:55 am

5mom wrote:

I'm sorry, I think that we're arguing in circles here and I can't begin to figure this out. Are you saying that the Rambam should have been intellectually inconsistent and abandoned his own halachic/hashkafic views? Why in the world? Again, the definition of "efshar lihei'asos al yidei acheirim" may well vary according to time, location, necessity and situation. There is no reason to suggest that the Rambam should have used someone else's barometer rather than his own.

I've already said that I think that if there was no one else available, it was very possibly OP's son's halachic responsibility to attend the levaya, and brought sources (including from the Rambam himself) to support that claim. But to be fair, OP's son's yeshiva isn't necessarily saying otherwise; they just think that someone else could have/should have been available. Without knowing the circumstances, I can't exactly argue on that claim, and neither could the Rambam have.

goodmorning

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 10:12 am

water_bear88 wrote:

I'm not talking about the need for a minyan as far as his being a meit mitzvah- I'm talking about the need for someone to carry the aron.

Still not a halachic meis mitzvah. Though I suspect that you know that and are just using the term figuratively. If OP's son was a kohen, would you be arguing that he should have attended the levaya to carry the aron?

ValleyMom

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 10:14 am

I can only imagine what would happen if some poor boy went into cardiac arrest during a shiur at this yeshiva.

They would allow him to collapse and die?!

I 100% agree with this mom.

I am livid just reading her initial post.

The whole reason Hashem placed us here on earth is to become better people.
HOW do you become BETTER PEOPLE by simply being passive and sitting and READING about being BETTER PEOPLE.

You learn by DOING- it is in the ACTION that we learn and grow.

Honestly ladies, would you want to have open heart surgery performed on you by a doctor that read every book and article about open heart surgery but never ever actually DID any surgery?

That Yeshiva's Hashkafa needs a MAJOR overhaul.

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 11:19 am

ValleyMom wrote:

Actually, someone once posted that their neighbor r"l lo aleinu had a stroke, and Hatzalah couldn't park their ambulance close to the victim's home because of someone who illegally parked for minyan at the local shul. Hatzalah WENT INTO THE SHUL AND SAID THAT THEY NEEDED THE CAR MOVED TO TRANSPORT A STROKING PATIENT, and a man left the shul to move his car.... after he finished davening.

The patient r"l lo aleinu suffered permanent brain damage.

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 11:21 am

To everyone posting that Talmud Torah trumps all:

Women are only exempt from Torah studies in order to provide child care, and provide for their household needs.

Clearly, you are not currently needed to provide either, as you have time to post on Imamother.

Why are you not instead using your time to study Torah? What is the basis for your "right this minute" exemption?

Not even going to ask how many of you send your kids to schools that ban recreational Internet use (thus putting you in the awkward position of contradicting the school administration just as much as OP)...

goodmorning

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 11:38 am

amother wrote:

Nope. Women are exempt from the mitzvah of learning Torah due to a g'zeiras hakasuv of "vilimaditem es bineichem -- vilo binoseichem." See Kiddushin 29b: איהי מנלן דלא מיחייבא דכתיב ולימדתם ולמדתם כל שמצווה ללמוד מצווה ללמד וכל שאינו מצווה ללמוד אינו מצווה ללמד ואיהי מנלן דלא מיחייבה למילף נפשה דכתיב ולימדתם ולמדתם כל שאחרים מצווין ללמדו מצווה ללמד את עצמו וכל שאין אחרים מצווין ללמדו אין מצווה ללמד את עצמו ומנין שאין אחרים מצווין ללמדה דאמר קרא ולמדתם אותם את בניכם ולא בנותיכם

A single childless woman is just as much exempt as her neighbor with newborn triplets.

(This is apart from their obligation to learn that which is necessary -- e.g., halachos that pertain to them. That's an obligation in order that they should know to be able to fulfill. But it's not a constant obligation to be busy with learning.)

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 12:28 pm

goodmorning wrote:

Nice punt. Try again.

If Torah learning is the most important thing in the world, why are you posting on Imamother?