Anyone have a family member who OTDed as an older adult

professor

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 4:43 pm

the funny thing is, that my family member wants to be accepted and yet wouldn't have an intellectual conversation about it. how can I accept someone who is doing all the wrong things? I don't understand it so it's hard to accept it. I need an intellectual discussion about WHY. why would someone who *does* know Torah become not frum? what is the thought process in such a person. IS there a thought process? or is it just easier to eat pig and drive on shobbos so let's not bother with intellect?
this is new to me. it just recently happened, or rather, I just recently found out about it

amother

Apricot

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 4:50 pm

professor wrote:

Ummm. If you were my family member and I went otd, you'd be the last person I'd want to have a conversation with about I, intellectually or otherwise. Your disrespect for his/her beliefs and absolute inability to consider anything other than your own position oozes from your posts. I get that you believe it's warranted (your viewpoint) I'm just trying to explain why someone would be reluctant to engage with you about this, there's clearly absolutely no point

amother

Ecru

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 4:56 pm

My guesses as to why someone wouldn't talk about it:

1. Something traumatic but private was the cause, and they don't want to talk about it with you.

2. They know they're being judged, and they know they won't get anywhere discussing it with you. I really don't mean this personally, but if I were the person you were talking about, I probably wouldn't share it with you. If I were to go OTD, it would be for intellectual reasons (my level of agnosticism currently keeps me within the fold, but I've thought about things). If you don't even believe in evolution, you wouldn't have anything that would bring me closer. Again, I'm not trying to be offensive- just that this is one particular area where I see no contradiction between Torah and science, and I've learned not to talk anything intellectual with non-believers in science.

eschaya

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 5:13 pm

professor wrote:

At first I wondered how you worry that you could have "caused" your family member to go otd, but after reading your last few ignorant and self-centered posts I guess I can believe it. The world is not as black and white as you believe it to be, and making claims about science and "the outside world" when you obviously don't know much about either is going to turn people off and may also cause them to unfortunately view frum people as intolerant and ignorant. When you become an expert in every scientific field, and when you are open minded enough to learn about the things that drive people, only then will you be equipped to fairly have the "intellectual conversation" you so badly want to have with your family member.
I hate to say this, but for all you claim that your family member doesn't want to bother with intellect... well this appears to be a familial trait.
I apologize in advance, I recognize I'm not being gentle here.

return2You

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 5:27 pm

professor wrote:

Why do they have to have an intellectual conversation with you? Who appointed you GD?
There is a concept called bechira in yiddishkeit.
I'll probably be bashed for saying this but I believe that Hashem gives everyone the bechira to choose their own lifestyle. Of course he wants us to be frum, but ultimately He leaves it up to us. but if Hashem can be accepting why can't you?

Last edited by return2You on Thu, Nov 26 2015, 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

shoshana2

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 5:32 pm

I with you professor, assuming it's an adult that went OTD. I don't understand why a person who is not doing what Hashem wants expects to be accepted unconditionally. This is definitely a shaila to as a Rav. In today's society everything goes and we can just call it "alternative " - this is not a Torah value.

amother

Tan

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 5:37 pm

professor wrote:

No it isn't easy. It isn't easy to give up the belief in a higher power, and the safety net of a community power. The people who do it do it either because the community has betrayed them or because they cannot live a double existence any longer. You can know Torah, but believe that it's all a lie, written by a human being who wasn't Moshe Rabeinu. The though proccess is questioning, and research, until you come to the conclusion that you cannot any longer believe in something you think isn't true.

amother

Ecru

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 5:42 pm

OP, how on earth do you know that this person hasn't had anything traumatic happen to them? You think no one's ever gone OTD because they couldn't handle being niddah again with yet another miscarriage or with PPD, or because they had one too many negative experiences with religious people, or any number of other things you wouldn't know about?

Funny

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 6:01 pm

eschaya wrote:

THIS!! I was going to respond to the other posts, but I figured there's no point.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone in my other post.

zaq

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 10:30 pm

professor wrote:

I want to understand what people THINK when they go OTD.
I know kids, kids don't think. or they are angry, or just want to be without rules etc,.

That's patronizing and grossly unfair to young people. Maybe your children don't think, but many young people think a whole lot more and a whole lot more deeply than so-called adults, if for no other reason than that their minds are still flexible, not yet having ossified into the rigidity so typical of certain groups. What young people lack is not the ability to think but the wisdom and foresight that come from experience, which explains why they often act more impulsively than seasoned adults.

professor

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 10:53 pm

amother wrote:

... I see no contradiction between torah and scince... where in the world did you get that idea? I don't blindly "blieve in" anything, and I do highly respect science.

Last edited by professor on Thu, Nov 26 2015, 11:11 pm; edited 3 times in total

professor

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 10:57 pm

shoshana2 wrote:

thank you for your support. I really needed this post after reading through some of the others...
I am totally going to ignore the posts that are deliberately mean to me. I am sorry, ladies, but I have my own family to deal with, so I will not waste my energy on mean people.

professor

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 11:01 pm

amother wrote:

isn't the torah all about questioning and research? weren't the hottest talmidim in ancent times those very students who questiond everything? those students who stumped even the greatest gedolim of their dor? if the thought process is questioning and research, then they are at home with the torah, no?

professor

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 11:04 pm

amother wrote:

actually after reading a post suggesting this, I started wondering... no matter how close I am with this person, I am not THAT PERSON, and who knows? maybe there is something I don't know about? this was something imamother made me wonder about

zaq

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 11:09 pm

imasoftov wrote:

How old was Elisha ben Avuya when he became Acher?

We will never know exactly what EbA saw that made him turn apostate, but it must have been rather traumatizing. Remember, four of the greatest sages of the age walked through the "pardes"; of the four, one died, one lost his mind, EbA lost his faith, and only Rabbi Akiva came back unscathed.

amother

Tan

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 11:13 pm

professor wrote:

Uh no. Definitely not these days. Anyone who questions raised red flags. I imagine the even in ancient times, once someone crossed certain lines, and came to certain conclusions after their research, they were labeled tziddokim and the like.

professor

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 11:16 pm

zaq wrote:

Pardes must be a very traumatizing place... then again, people like maddonna learned some kaballah and stayed normal (as normal as she's been till then)
don't think that I never wanted to learn kaballah. it's been nagging in my brain for years. I can't wait to be 40 (are women also 40 when they are allowed tro learn this?)

professor

Thu, Nov 26 2015, 11:20 pm

amother wrote:

come on, tzeddokim believed that someone's eye should be ripped out if he poked another's eye out. that is not asking questions, that's just being "smart aleck" even reading the pashut p'shat of the passuk one would not draw this crazy conclusion! this is out right making fun of the torah, what the tzeddokkim did.