Making a wedding and supporting a young couple

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PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 7:12 pm

amother wrote:

I'm so conflicted about this thread. Like some of the other posters, I suffered during shidduchim because my parents couldn't support (at all). Like some of the other posters, I went ahead and got a great education and great job, and was able to support myself well. And at the end of the day, I B"H married a great guy and we are very successful and self-made (with Hashem's help of course).

So on the one hand, I am grateful for the process that I went through, and I see my "supported" friends fighting with the parents and in-laws, and having miserable shalom bayis because nobody developed marketable skills and they are floundering as life gets more complicated.

On the other hand, and this is a BIG other hand, I absolutely went through Gehinnom in shidduchim and it scarred me in an irreparable way (even though I try to work on my emunah that this was Hashem's plan etc). I married late and had to go through some seedy encounters along the way. So a big part of me would just rather fund my kids to get married very young and avoid going through what I went through.

So even though I see the negatives of support, I also see the negatives of turning your daughter into an older single. Good luck.

Big hugs.
But let's not forget the many older singles who have everything, and I can think of some who do - yichus, looks, money, personality - and yet haven't found their shidduchim yet.
I'm really sorry you went through what you did but you describe the pros and how you grew so well. Would you rather right now be in some of the negative situations you see?

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 7:15 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

Also, in Israel , it is very standard to split expenses.

Yes, and things are imploding there too.

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 7:17 pm

amother wrote:

...um she definitely said more money than he could spend on himself under any circumstances ... I can't pull the quote out but I just reread it

Even so, we have no right to our parents' money.

sourstix

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 7:23 pm

its a gevald and geshrei! why dont the yeshivishe rabbonim do something about this? surely they know. what in heavens name is happening. I know this isnt new. its one of the saddest things I can literally feel the pain through the screen. its so hard and sad. I wish I could help you. is there anyway you can speak to a rav and ask him what he thinks you should do? I do think if you want change then get together with a bunch of yeshivish women and protest about it. decide that all of you will not allow this to continue. someone has to be the nachshon. I am relieved to see that in the chasidish world such a thing doesnt happen. if it does its not in my community. thank you hashem.

btw I have a brother married about 17 yrs and is living in ey" and is full time learning and his wife doesnt have a degree. ok they nebach have no children. but they survive. and oh boy do they survive. even through the infertility that they have come through. and there is no official support. they are chasidish. the shidduch was never in mention of money. and he was a serious learner all the years. he was known as the learner way back. so whats up with the idea of support? hatorah nikneis beyesurin. I am not anonymous bec I want op to see this is a real person. and eth here is true. I wish pp would realize that not everyone is made to sit and learn and really needs the support. even the ones who are serious can help themselves and find a way. I find that the ones who struggle and continue grow up to be something all others ok, its a style I guess they go along.

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 7:33 pm

sourstix wrote:

its a gevald and geshrei! why dont the yeshivishe rabbonim do something about this?.

I think they are but under the radar. You can read the Klal Perspectives of sometime earlier this year (I think) on the workplace, transitioning form learning to working. And of course, there's R' Yonoson Rosenblum's article Chemotherapy as Metaphor on Cross-Currents.com.

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 7:49 pm

Pink fridge you are quoting me out of context. I said she should have the daughter ASK her grandfather to support them. And that maybe he would hate the idea, maybe not. Be if mom can't easily afford and grandad can, and dd is going off on her own anyway, then dd should be the one to talk to grandpa.... But I agree he has NO obligation at all. That was my FIRST POINT!!!

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 7:51 pm

If you read all of my posts together they do make more sense... Tricky though I know 😉

amother

Tan

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 7:51 pm

Again not reading whole thread so apologizing if redundant - I think OP said the young man did research & found out $2000 monthly is needed to live. That sounds reasonable to start (though depends A LOT on location. Rent is indeed much cheaper in Lakewood, but from what we see in ads it looks like food may be much cheaper in Brooklyn) but once you need to pay babysitting & playgroups and then tuitions, it's much more.

But why on earth should all of the $2000 come from the girl's parents? Unless until she's finished school she can't work and the husband can't find a paying kollel?

mommy3b2c

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 8:32 pm

gold21 wrote:

Im sorry if u feel like were being harsh... I think its a touchy topic for many of us, and its totally not personal Wink

Personally, I was raised in the same bais yaakov system your daughter went through, and kollel was drilled into my head. I went with the flow of my bais yaakov and was not rebellious (Well, for the most part anyway... Lol). My parents never specifically said they were against kollel, though perhaps from time to time they did make comments of that nature. However, we we were raised in a way that made us very aware of how money is necessary in life (I.e. we didnt have much of it Wink

), and we were also raised to be independant thinkers, so 2 plus 2 equals 4.... none of us married long term learners.

I experienced similar. I went to bais yaakov schools but I don't really remember being drilled about kolell at all. It was definitely spoken about, but I don't remember being influenced at all. At home, I saw a father who worked hard and learned in the mornings and on shabbos. I definitely always heard discussion about the absurdity and unsustainability of today's kolell system. We were always taught to think for ourselves and college was considered very important. We all started college at 18 or 19 girls and boys. (My youngest brother is actually learning in israel and being supported and did not yet go to college, but he is the only one) When we were dating, money was not a discussion. If you're marrying someone based on money, what kind of marriage is that? Once we were engaged, my parents offered to pay a certain amount for their sons and daughters and the other side matched it. My parents paid the support for a few years until we were in our feet. The maximum anyone stayed in kolell was two years and they were working on their careers at the same time. I honestly can't stand today's system, and I'm glad I'm not part of it.

Sarale Licht1

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 8:37 pm

MagentaYenta, what you are characterizing as "raiding" is simply not so. We will ask him if he would like to help. No pressure. No raiding involved. He knows his financial situation, and if he can/ wants to help he will, if not, not. No one is stealing anything from him or taking anything dishonestly. When my husband was in his teens, he bought things for his parents. Like carpets and couches. He took care of his parents when they were ill. So maybe it's ok- families take care of each other. It's not a tit for tat thing. Maybe people just do what they can, when they can. My husband and I are not thieves, nor are we money grubbers. We are in a tight spot right now, and we don't know where to turn. My husband's parents leaned on him in their time of need. So are we evil people who are raiding someone's pension fund if it's our turn to do the leaning?

amother

cornflower

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 8:41 pm

Rules of the game:
1. Husband needs to learn all day for as long as possible, in the environment best for his learning which likely will not have anything to do with the stipend they give. This means the husband cannot be expected to bring in ANY money.
2. The wife should work as much as possible to bring in money.
3. Couples should get married as soon as possible after seminary/yeshiva, which means they likely do not have a degree or marketable skills
4. Couples should have as many children as possible, as soon as possible after marriage.
5. Parents and in-laws make up the difference to cover the lifestyle, because Torah and learning and children are beautiful.
6. Most people grow up with "average" money views, meaning living with very little is close to impossible

=25 year old couple with three kids, fourth on the way, no degrees. Wife works some stupid job as a secretary that she resents and wishes she could be with her kids. She is constantly in a compromised state as she is always pregnant, post partum, or nursing. By the way, half of her paycheck goes to the babysitters. At the end of the day, she comes home with about 800$ a month after working 8 hours a day and giving up the role of raising her beloved children. Meanwhile, their tiny apartment is a wreck since she has three kids under three and is half dead by the time she gets home. Her husband comes in for an hour or so at night to take a break in his learning and see the family, glowing with fulfillment and satisfaction.

When we talk about numbers for support and I am seeing the average around 1500-2000, I don't know what you are talking about. No family of five can live on that. Think of it in terms of medicaid--if a family of five has less than 40K/y they are eligible. To rent a two bedroom apartment [at least where I live] is around 1700$. That's before you get to groceries. And people that grow up middle class LIKELY will not be happy with their three children smooshed into a two bedroom apartment. If they rent a house, it will be closer to 2000-2500. Again, ONLY for rent. Maybe double that will be somewhat comfortable.

Parents, think about what your own budget is per month. And what life would look like if you only had 2000$ a month.

Add to this picture that most couples have other issues that come up over their lifetime that add more stress and money--shalom bayis, fertility, health, miscarriage, um, TUITION etc. And added expenses: this one needs PT, that one needs specialized medical equipment, this one can't work because her relative just died...

I have a lot of anger that the System so strongly set up this unrealistic dream in so many people in the hopes that the parents would be rolling in dough and happy to finance. It becomes the parents fault if their children are suffering financially or can't get a shidduch. I don't blame the idealistic young couples. I blame the system they have been a part of since day one.

Not to say that it can never work.

Klal Yisroel needs gedolim, and if no one ever tries to learn long term, no one will succeed. There are so many beautiful things about kollel lifestyle--having a life revolving around Torah. Having so many precious Jewish children. Living a truly wholesome, torah and family oriented life. Protecting their family unit from outside influences. Having peace of mind and being involved in "the big bad world"

Enough said.

sourstix

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 8:43 pm

I think its not nice to tell op the shidduch is about money. no its not. you dont know whats going on. shes kvetching about the money. she didnt even give you a description of the boy. or that she likes him or her daughter. she is venting and asking for ideas. she sounds like a very smart and articulate mother the way I see her. she is in a dilemma.

amother

Amber

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 8:45 pm

OP, I understand that your choices are limited and you don't want to pick a choice that will let your daughter down, but I think that in this case, the answer is simple, because one of your options is not really an option.
You cannot afford to support them. It's as simple as that. I live in Brooklyn, by the way. Even $2,000 a month would be pretty limiting for two people if you calculated all expenses, and assuming they want to start a family, I really don't know how 2,000/month is going to cover three people in NYC.
I'm not concerned that you're going to promise more than you can give, because from your posts, you don't sound like you intend to do that. You feel like you can maybe contribute some, even though you don't believe in this lifestyle.
One thing to think about, which has been slightly touched on in this thread, is how many other daughters do you have? Whatever you plan to provide to this daughter, will you have enough for all? There are way too many threads on here about angry children whose parents provide far more support to one sibling than another. Whether a parent does or doesn't have the right to choose which child gets what money is irrelevant to the fact that it will probably raise issues among your children which you should be prepared to take on. And that's without even getting into the son who will be losing his yeshiva tuition so that a future SIL can learn.
I was raised in a kollel family, food stamps and section 8. I don't live that lifestyle anymore. I understand that many women on here had bad experiences with staying single in the yeshivish world. I didn't for one reason: I didn't date in that world and I won't subscribe to that mentality. (This is not to disrespect the ideology which focuses more on an individual's middos, but a lot of the issues that developed in the community were just not for me.)
I understand that desire that almost all humans have to be in a relationship, but I do not relate to that desire to be in such a rush to get into a relationship that you're willing to spend the rest of your life with the wrong person rather than to be single. I'd far prefer to be single than to be in a relationship with the wrong man. And honestly, if this man would not marry your daughter because her parents cannot afford to support him in learning, what does that say about his commitment to her as a human being?
Hearkening back to what Fox was saying, she should marry someone who is right for HER. Your daughter deserves to marry someone who is willing to do everything he can to marry her. This notion that she has to pay to marry this boy is degrading to her. Regardless of any positives this system has to offer, it is inarguable that women are degraded by this whole system (as are men, ultimately). I don't think you should feel bad if you do not support this lifestyle from an ideological standpoint, and you certainly shouldn't feel bad if you cannot support this lifestyle from a practical standpoint. And please don't make yourself into a beggar over it. It's not healthy for anyone in your family.

sourstix

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 8:49 pm

I think there are pp here that arent on the same wavelength that yeshivish pp are on. and thats ok. thats why I do think this thread should have been on private yeshivish forum. its simple they will understand it better.

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 8:52 pm

Amber that was brilliant!!!!!!!

amother

Amber

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 8:54 pm

sourstix wrote:

Why is it better in a private yeshivish forum? The OP is not on the same wavelength either. I grew up yeshivish, as I wrote. My father still learns in kollel today. As someone who grew up the kollel lifestyle, I might have insights that newlyweds on the private yeshivish forum may not have. There are practical implications to living a yeshivish lifestyle.
This is what I like about Fox's posts, btw. They're not castle-in-the-sky everyone-needs-kollel posts. They're well rounded, and focus on the practical implications of taking on the lifestyle.
And now that I wrote that, I want to add that perhaps two of my favorite posters on this site are MagentaYenta and Fox. So cut it out right now, the two of you, and don't make me turn this car around!

MagentaYenta

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 8:57 pm

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

MagentaYenta, what you are characterizing as "raiding" is simply not so....

Please be kind enough to show me where I said that. ETA: I've stayed away from this thread since fox started name calling.

Last edited by MagentaYenta on Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

Sarale Licht1

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:00 pm

Thank you, sourstix, I think you've got that right. I happen to think the boy is a lovely person, no sense of entitlement. He's young and probably scared and he probably just wants to know what we can do to help until my daughter works. I did hit panic when I posted the OP. But, thinking it over, I don't really believe the finances will stop this shidduch. We'll offer what we can, for however long we can, and although it may be difficult, the young couple will have to find a way to fill in what they can. This boy is one of the most heartfelt, straightforward people you ever want to meet. You could tell right away he was different from any of the other boys my daughter dated. I can sense that when necessary, he will do something to earn some $.
MagentaYenta, I apologize. This format is new to me and I find it confusing. I can't always tell who said what. My comment was directed at whoever said it.

LiLIsraeli

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:28 pm

What if your daughter waits to get married until she finishes her degree? She can already apply for jobs now with the expectation of having her Masters before the beginning of next school year. Hopefully then she will be earning money and there will be less of a burden on you. It's not so unreasonable to have a 5- or 6-month engagement while things are being put into place in preparation for the marriage.

PassionFruit

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:33 pm

It is unrealistic to wait once you know who you are going to marry in the yeshivish sector. They are not touching, and the superficiality of shidduch dating is already ripe breading ground for tension and angst as it is. Prolonging the engagement is a recipe for cold feet, misunderstandings, and heartbreak.

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