Making a wedding and supporting a young couple

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amother

Seagreen

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 9:37 pm

.

Last edited by amother on Thu, Dec 31 2015, 2:20 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 11:35 pm

I'm just laughing cuz most people I know would be thrilled to just have to give 2,000 dollars a month.
Usually if it's a girl their finances are ur problem. Yes that means moving expenses, daily needs, car, rent. When the baby comes everything... People don't put a number on it which means couples don't really budget.... I find this mind blowing. Like if u say u need it then ur parents have to give it.

Ps
Does she have student loans??

Sarale Licht1

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 12:43 am

Luckily she got a nice scholarship for much of her schooling, and her Masters is on the cheaper side. She paid for part of it with her savings and we paid for part. So no student loans.

Frumdoc

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 1:57 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

Please be kind enough to show me where I said that. ETA: I've stayed away from this thread since fox started name calling.

I agree with you, btw. And the personal "I'm not attacking you but the bigot I'm describing is remarkably like you" attack was unfair and unwarrented from someone who posts oh so authoritatively all over in lengthy drashos and expects everyone to bow down to her opinion.

SRS

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 2:05 am

I'm coming into this discuss late which is probably beneficial (for one I know the OP actually likes this suitor). I did want to say earlier that it strikes me as strange to worry heavily about a daughter's happiness (a romantic notion and one that could significantly change under the pressure of lack of finances) when these types of shidduchim are arranged as "mergers". However, knowing that his parents are not demanding, but that the boy himself is being practical, by trying to figure out what they need to live on, you are in a better starting position for the "negotiations."

Sadly I don't think you can afford this shidduch if you can't bankroll it now with money saved in the past with the same funds put aside (or being put aside) for younger children to get their start without impacting your own necessary emergency funds and retirement funds.

In light of that (and despite that I think kollel for everyone with a black hat is bankrupting to a community, financially and morally), what I would suggest is that you insist on a few things before blessing this marriage and parting with your hard-earned cash:

1. He needs to start working part-part time while in kollel. Any work is better than no work. It just keeps the resume developing and gives a taste of future opportunities so he can concentrate his efforts. The job market today is extremely tough and 5 years of learning often becomes 5 years of learning + 3 years of schooling + loans loans loans, putting the couple a good 15-20 years behind the work-from-the-start family because of time out of the job market and lost opportunities. You mention he is trained in a skill in which case, find 10 hours a week to pursue that skill and build the art. In the world of learning, it is my understanding that families will insist the other family come with matching funds, so to speak, to demonstrate their investment in the merger. I think when your daughter brings the degree and family support into the marriage, it is fair to ask that he or his family also bring something into the marriage. They are losing a mouth to feed, you are gaining that mouth. I'd say that they should contribute something either by him working or their contributing (but I'd go for him working and their contribution towards future support).

2. Put a time limit and dollar cap on your support and stick to it. Don't include incidentals, camp for grandchildren, tuition for grandchildren, or anything that you can be sucked into down the road. State a monthly amount and a final dollar amount and stand by it.

3. Consider inviting them to live in your basement. It might not be ideal for you (would provide motivation for them I'd hope), but rent is serious money down the drain even if your father-in-law volunteers to pay it.

4. Ask them to speak with people in different stages of their marriage, both kollel, non-kollel, and never-kollel for money advice and insist they read a book together on financial management.

5. You mentioned they would probably go on food stamps after the 1st kid. I'd insist that they stay far away from welfare programs. Government assistance is addicting. Unlike taking money from family, there is no face and no relationship. If they go down that road, it will be difficult to leave it.

Fox

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 3:11 am

Frumdoc wrote:

You know, this is probably one of the meanest things directed toward an individual that I've seen in over 7 years on Imamother.

Yes, I have a reputation for verbosity. I try to have a sense of humor about it and be somewhat self-deprecating. Likewise, my well-documented nutsIness over the NY Regents system.

I don't come to Imamother for pregnancy advice. I come for the intellectual stimulation and opportunity to consider big issues and ideas, and somehow I have a hard time articulating many of those issues in pithy one-liners or even one-paragraphers.

I am sorry if I come off as authoritative. I have a significant command presence IRL, and I understand that I can be intimidating when I don't intend to be.

But let me be honest: the uptick in sarcasm and blanket condemnations of entire groups is undermining Imamother. I have many online friends who've essentially left Imamother because of it. I get PMs and emails almost every time topics like this come up -- the most recent involved very sarcastic comments directed toward a gadol with whom many of the posters were completely unfamiliar! You can be 100 percent opposed to a particular gadol or philosophy and still treat him/it with respect. Go back and read how FS's extremely Zionistic father referred to the Satmar Rebbe, z"tl.

If you don't like me or what I say, then argue back. Point out where my logic is faulty or where I'm just plain wrong. Not only can I handle it, I love it!

But expressing criticism or distaste does not, by itself, constitute discussion or intellectual argument. And if you do so repeatedly and/or sarcastically about a particular subject, don't act injured when someone calls you on it.

sequoia

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 3:15 am

Foxala...

You ought to have all this in real life...

The rest, I cannot say.

Fox

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 3:42 am

sequoia wrote:

Foxala...

You ought to have all this in real life...

Ah, well, I *did* have it IRL when I was in my 20s and didn't have kids. But as you know, my life can be complicated: a family business; three girls dating (which means plenty of drama and endless calls with shadchanim) and starting businesses or careers; a chronically ill DH; elderly parents who increasingly need my attention . . .

Lol, my days of hanging out and having long philosophical conversations seem to be over for a while!

sequoia

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 3:47 am

Well, while I'm here you're welcome to come over anytime for long philosophical conversations and cats Smile

Fox

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 4:01 am

sequoia wrote:

Well, while I'm here you're welcome to come over anytime for long philosophical conversations and cats Smile

Cats! You're back with your cats!?

Cats trump any and all philosophical or even pragmatic debates, and I refuse to even consider any opposing views. We're getting a cat café in the neighborhood in the next year or so.

Several of my kids don't like cats, a sign of parenting failure that even lengthy stints in college or kollel are unlikely to remedy.

amother

Gold

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 6:28 am

I think we have to change the whole system. If no parents would agree to fully support the young couple the next x years, at first of course a lot of shidduchim wont work out but in the end, I mean, you have to marry someone. If everybody agreed to a limit (maximum support a couple can get from the parents AND a limit of years supporting the couple) we wont have this situation. It is not manageable for most people (especially if you have more than one kid!).

Children should be encouraged to have at least a part time job before they marry. Yes I know I know, its not considered frum and all but sorry, parents cant bleed to death. We should get away from this crazy standard of first spending tens of thousands of bucks on engagement rings, making 50.000 dollar (and more!!) weddings, fully financing shana rishona (and shana shnia, shana shlosha and so on) ideally in Jerusalem or at least in Boro Park and of course kollel until the first grandkid is ready to marry (and who supports this grandkids family?)

Personally, I would not let my kid marry anyone who doesnt take him/her the way he/she is without big bucks. If he or she is 25 when they get married, so what? Theyll marry someone who takes them as they are (we are "faulty" in the eyes of the system anyway, I am (yucky yuck!) a geyores with - afaik - zero yichus and hubby is a BT with some yichus, but still BT). If one set of parents or both can contribute some to the marriage, great, especially if it is a very young couple, but it shouldnt be the grounds for a shidduch.

When I got married we had nothing. Literally nothing. We got zero support from parents. SIL also got zero support when she got married. We both managed to have beautiful haimish weddings and we built Torah homes without big bucks supporting us. I work fulltime and hubby goes to Kollel and studies for a degree, Brother in law is a Kollel Rav, SIL is a SAHM. We are not rich but we manage. (side note, yes, we are Yeshivish frum!)

Just to reiterate: Sorry, I know, I know, this vent does not help the OP and the system right now is that way, especially in America and in some places in Israel.... Sad

But there should be time for a change. There has to be time for a change... Even one of my sem rabbonim said the current Yeshiva world system cannot work ultimately.

OP, please reconsider and also ask the other family why they dont at least want to share the burden. Also set a limit how long maximum the support could be. Be realistic. If it is a dealbreaker, then, good riddance. Your daughter deserves a better guy and a better family to marry into.

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 10:15 am

amother wrote:

Pink fridge you are quoting me out of context. I said she should have the daughter ASK her grandfather to support them. And that maybe he would hate the idea, maybe not. Be if mom can't easily afford and grandad can, and dd is going off on her own anyway, then dd should be the one to talk to grandpa.... But I agree he has NO obligation at all. That was my FIRST POINT!!!

Thank you for pointing that out and my apologies.
I appreciate asking grandparents for help. But please don't telegraph to her that he has more money than he knows what to do with so he may as well use it productively for her. And again, only if he's rolling and is financially secure for his retirement years.

gold21

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 10:32 am

amother wrote:

I'm so conflicted about this thread. Like some of the other posters, I suffered during shidduchim because my parents couldn't support (at all). Like some of the other posters, I went ahead and got a great education and great job, and was able to support myself well. And at the end of the day, I B"H married a great guy and we are very successful and self-made (with Hashem's help of course).

So on the one hand, I am grateful for the process that I went through, and I see my "supported" friends fighting with the parents and in-laws, and having miserable shalom bayis because nobody developed marketable skills and they are floundering as life gets more complicated.

On the other hand, and this is a BIG other hand, I absolutely went through Gehinnom in shidduchim and it scarred me in an irreparable way (even though I try to work on my emunah that this was Hashem's plan etc). I married late and had to go through some seedy encounters along the way. So a big part of me would just rather fund my kids to get married very young and avoid going through what I went through.

So even though I see the negatives of support, I also see the negatives of turning your daughter into an older single. Good luck.

Im wondering why you didnt simply date short term learners then, who would be less insistent on financial support

amother

Cerise

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 10:36 am

gold21 wrote:

Im wondering why you didnt simply date short term learners then, who would be less insistent on financial support

Right on target!!! Why don't the Bais Yaakov schools teach that kollel is not for everyone, and you shouldn't make your parents get a second mortgage to support you. They should teach how to elevate a working lifestyle to be on the same level as kollel lifestyle (and that certainly is possible!).
My sister is stuck because she was brainwashed that kollel is the only way, and my parents can't support, so guys won't look at her even though she has a great job. (The guys that are interested are usually not the brightest guys, whereas my sister is an A student and really bright, so that's just not a match.)
She is so stubborn about only wanting a 100% learning guy because she was taught that it's the only way...

Abby2

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 12:23 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

It is possible to stick up for someone without putting down another.

Sarale Licht1

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 12:32 pm

SRS and others, thank you for the very practical advice. The time limit is already in place, I.e. Until she gets a job. Even if she can't get a job in her field for September, she can still work. Plus, my daughter said his kollel check can add significantly to their finances. The way my daughter conveyed it to me, both she and the boy she is dating take our finances very seriously. This is important to me, attitude is very important. So we're not even discussing supporting even one infant grandchild here. I do have other daghters, some are much younger. As for my teenage daughter, we discussed at length the possibility that her older sister might "get" more than her. But this daughter is following my derech, says she doesn't want to date until she finishes her career, and doesn't want a learning guy. She fargins, the sisters are close. Is this fair? Of course not. Does it make sense anyway? I think yes. As for the living in the basement thing, I'm torn. My husband and daughter think that this could cause terrible damage to our relationship, based on their observation of others. I sort of think they should try it, and if it's no good, move out.

tichellady

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 12:41 pm

If you do go with the basement arrangement you need to have strict rules for both of you about giving each other privacy and space. I would stay away from that option unless you have a good plan for how to ensure that you can keep those rules ( seperate entrances, their own kitchen in the basement, etc).otherwise is seems like a terrible way to start a marriage.

Heyaaa

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 12:41 pm

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

That and that it would be extra hard on their shalom bayis. Shana Rishona is awkward enough but this would make it so much more difficult.

Chayalle

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 1:51 pm

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

My husband and daughter think that this could cause terrible damage to our relationship, based on their observation of others. I sort of think they should try it, and if it's no good, move out.

I wouldn't. I would even prefer my DD's live a good mile or so away, at least, when they get married.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Dec 31 2015, 1:52 pm

PinkFridge (sorry I don't know how to do quotes) apology accepted (not really needed!) and I 100% agree.

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