Do I tell someone? Who?

HonesttoGod

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 4:01 pm

I am so glad some of you are not my sons teachers.

FACT: At 10 years old I used to tell people I babysit my 5 siblings. FACT: My parents would be downstairs or outside on the front steps and we were all supposed to be asleep - but in my head I believed I was old enough and my parents left me in charge.

FACT: 8 year olds exaggerate A LOT!

FACT: Calling the CPS without knowing enough details is nasty. Imagine this was your child, your family, your household. CPS don't just do a random questionaire to see if there is real child "abuse". First they take the kids away THEN they ask questions and if they decide that they either a: can't be bothered with this case or b: you are ok enough they will give you your kids back and THEN keep up regular visits and report every little loose doorhandle that they feel isn't "safe" for the kids.
CPS is not a joke that you call for every little story an 8 year old tells unless she is coming to school with a broken arm and a back full of bruises from "playing with her father".

(and yes I know personally about this I am not just making it up).

amother

Lemon

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 4:03 pm

OP, I'm a teacher, have family that teaches. Children fantasize/imagine/lie/apply stories to themselves. If everything children said was reported on, CPS would need 100 more workers.

You can not go to CPS without going to other people first, either principal, school social worker, local Rav. On a practical note, if the child is exaggerating and you report, if anyone finds out its you or suspects as much, you will lose your job. so behave with care.

On a spiritual note, reporting on another Jew is a grave sin. It is allowed in some cases. Ask a Rav.

STMommy

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 4:08 pm

To the lemon amother: yes of course children exaggerate. I myself would have counseled the OP to speak to the principal. But she said in her OP that speaking to the principal for whatever reason is not an option in this case. Would also add that I have been in situations where a kind teacher tried to do her own investigation into something that a child told her, and the end result was the parents telling the child never to speak to anyone at school about anything personal ever again. In the cases with good outcomes, the child ignored their parent's directive and spoke up the next time something was amiss.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 4:33 pm

Op its ppl like you who have put lots of parents under investigation!!!! For something a small child said, or nosy neighbor reported...when there was no story to be told!!! Yes its ppl like you who act without knowing what the true story is, and fell a need to report ever silly thing.....do you know in what pain ppl like you have placed parents???!!!!! How many years in court, money for lawyers, while the kids were in a foster home...for what? Becuse a teacher that was nosy thought she heard the kid say something. When It all wasn't true!!!!

Op Before you do something...Think! Would you like someone to do this to you?

I know to many story's were ppl thought they needed to call. Are ppl really bord with nothing to do with there time? Are you really so bord that you think you need to put ppl in years of trouble and pain?? Think again. Banging head

amother

Seafoam

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 4:44 pm

STMommy wrote:

You'd get the same result after calling CPS. The parent will tell the child never to speak up about anything personal that goes on at home. I was a mandated reporter when I interned in a public school. There was a child there that was clearly being abused and he said he was and explained it in detail. My supervisor spoke to him and then told me to call CPS which I did. They went down there. They investigated and at the end, they recommended parenting classes for the parents and some other recommendations that the parents most likely did not follow. Anyway, the parents did just that. They told the child not to disclose any info and the child stopped talking to the adults at school. He did not talk at all.
After looking into this more, I learned that a child is not necessarily better off once CPS would decide to place them with a family and even until that is done it is traumitizing for the child. I would not be so quick to call them after dealing with them just once unless the child is going through really severe abuse and neglect at home.

With that said, I'd talk to the mom about your concerns, find out if the info is true, if she is just ignorant, give her some resources, offer to help her find a proper babysitter and just keep an eye out for the child and see if there are other red flags. I think after talking to the mom, she will shape up and get a proper babysitter.

Miri7

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 4:46 pm

amother wrote:

OP came on here wondering what to do and asking advice, so please don't bash her. I think that she is aware that the kids's information could be 100% wrong. But she is concerned that it may be true, and that an 8 year old is regularly home alone with a 1 and 2 year old for hours each night.

OP isn't calling CPS just because she's "bored." She is not a "nosy" teacher, as you say. She is a teacher who heard something, that, if true, is concerning and dangerous to the children. By taking her job, she agreed to be a mandatory reporter. She didn't run to report to CPS upon hearing a vague rumor - she is here wondering how to navigate getting accurate information and deciding how to proceed to make sure that the kids are safe.

Your bashing is unfair.

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 4:52 pm

I'm a fifth grade teacher and recently (3 weeks ago) had a very similar situation. My student told me she also babysits her 4 younger siblings. Over the next few weeks the stories got more elaborate. She told me her parents work late and she cooks supper herself and puts her siblings to sleep. The next story was how she goes to the grocery store herself. I brought it to the attention of the principal then called the mother. It turns out some of that was true, the parents do work late but there's a nanny in the house that does all the parental responsibilities. Since this child helps the nanny, she was taking credit for the work.

I would not run to call CPS right away. Don't get me wrong, it could be neglect but you ddon't run to make that call without doing proper research first.

amother

Orchid

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 4:53 pm

when I was 8 (in the 4th grade) my mother left me to babysit my siblings for 15-30 minutes once in a while (uncle lived in same building in case of emergency) if she had to run out and do a quick errand. She didn't leave my with infants, but def with a napping toddler. I was very mature, logical, and really responsible, and there was nothing wrong with it. some 8 yr olds are more responsible than some other 12 yr olds.

nywife

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 4:53 pm

STMommy wrote:

You are all giving the OP VERY BAD ADVICE.
She is a mandated reporter. Mandated reporters are required to report without conducting their own investigation.
CPS is an investigative body. They are the ones who are charged with determining the facts of the situation.
If there is no neglect taking place they will close their investigation and deem the case unfounded.

Quote:

The siblings are 2 and 1.
She babysits for a few hours, at night.
She has a strong sense of responsibility, but she is not very mature or "street smart", and I would not be confident that she would know what to do in an emergency, or be able to carry it out, even if she did know.

OP, you know enough to warrant a call.

Sincerely,
someone who unfortunately has needed to call CPS very often

Disclaimer: I am the first one to tell you that if there are legitimate reasons to suspect abuse, the correct authorities should be involved. HOWEVER (And Refer to this link http://www1.nyc.gov/site/acs/c.....page.)

1. Mandated reporters have to either report by themselves OR cause a supervisor to report. OP going to the principal with her concerns BEFORE calling CPS is not a violation of her responsibilities.

2. There must be reasonable cause. To quote "..based on your observations of the evidence, professional training and experience" lead you to believe there is abuse or neglect.

It does not sound like OP has observed or picked up on any suspected abuse. It sounds like her student made a comment, that does require clarification, but that does not mean to rush blindly to involve authorities.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 4:53 pm

Miri7 wrote:

I disagree with you
An 8 year old is not that small, and can be left at night when in bed ( should be asleep) for a few if mother has a phone on.

It seems to me that this 8 yo was very proud to tell her teachers that she babysits her siblings.

amother

Taupe

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 5:03 pm

Bizzydizzymommy wrote:

Children fantasize and make up stories. First check to see that the details are true. Its possible the mother has a baby monitor set up by a neighbor or something. The mother could also be running outside for 5 minutes to take out the garbage etc....you need to really get all the facts before taking action. I would not call CPS right away unless there are other signs of abuse or neglect. I had a neighbor who's son asked another neighbors kid to cross him and he went to the pizza shop to get himself slush...some person saw the kid asking someone else to cross him back and asked the kid where his mother was, he said she was home...this person went and called the cops...causing a domino effect of police reports , CPS etc...this mother is a wonderful mother and thought her 9 year old was playing outside with the neighbors kid. Things happen and it's not always as the kid portrays it.

Ok that story is just ridiculous because there is no reason a 9 year old can't go into the store across the street from his home on his own. Particularly since he was careful enough to have an older person cross the street with him. Either way, that wouldn't change the decision to report or not. OP should dig a little deeper into what babysitting means. If it is true neglect she has to report. If she wants to talk to mother first that would be a good first step. I'm sure the mother is unaware of the law to wait until 12 for real babysitting. She may feel her 8 year old is more responsible than she is and it may be just to run out for a few minutes anyway in which case it's not really babysitting.

cnc

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 5:26 pm

STMommy wrote:

You personally had your children removed prior to an investigation?
Please elaborate on your personal experiences while you are telling the OP to violate her mandate reporting requirement. I can elaborate on many stories involving CPS and what you were describing above has never happened in my experience.

I have not, but I do know people that have.
I know a child that broke a foot because they missed a step and tripped and the child was taken away for an entire year and placed with a relative. (The entire family ended up moving into that relative for the year.)
I can think of at least three other situations offhand where CPS took children away or opened a case (which means that the children can stay home but there is a weekly visit from the CPS with many questions .)

Where I live CPS takes away children very easily. In fact there is one local hospital that used to call CPS very often on Orthodox Jews that showed up to the ER, until after realizing that it was in many instances NOT parental abuse, Hatzola told this hospital that if they continue doing this they will not bring any more patients to that specific hospital.

So I think it all depends on the CPS in your specific city.

I am not saying that CPS should never be called. Unfortunately there are times when they MUST be called. But be very careful before calling and make sure that you have your facts straight.
Assuming that they will question and do proper investigations before taking children away is not necessarily accurate.

Miri7

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 5:51 pm

amother wrote:

I'm not sure what part of my post you disagree with. I didn't say whether or not the story, if true, would warrant a call to CPS. (I personally think it's likely that the child was "bragging" or overstating her role as babysitter.) I was saying that OP came her with a concern asking what others thought.

In her post OP even asks "Is this something to really call CPS about?" This statement seems to express that even if the kids's story is true, that she's not sure it rises to the level of neglect or abuse.

My post was just to point out that OP came here for advice, and wasn't jumping to call CPS because of one statement that a child made, as your post suggested. I was objecting to the bashing and misrepresentation of OP's post. That's all.

ETA: I think that I do see now that you are taking issue with my saying that the kids being alone each night for hours would be "dangerous" for the kids. I stand by that statement. I don't leave my children that age home alone at night for extended periods. I will run out to the car, yes, but I don't leave them really alone. At that age, I don't trust their judgment and maturity in an emergency, no matter how responsible they are on an everyday basis.

Still, even though I think it's dangerous, I'm not sure that the situation would warrant a call to CPS. If I were the teacher and found it's true, then I would try to see if I could help the family by getting them babysitters or something. There is a lot that can be done to help before calling CPS when you're dealing with a situation like that. A number of those ideas have been suggested by other posters.

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Jan 21 2016, 6:24 am

OP- find out your legal obligation in your state. That should be a good guideline.
Eight might be okay to leave home in certain situations, but an eight year old is certainly not qualified to care for a 1 & 2 year old. When I was 7 years old I was left to care for my 2 year old brother outside, and the neighbor found him wandering into the Avenue. If something would have happened to him, I would never have forgiven my parents for putting me in that situation. There is a reason children's bodies are not capable of bearing children. They're not ready to care for them. Having said that, you may want to find out if what does child states is happening is actually happening.

Iymnok

Thu, Jan 21 2016, 6:59 am

Is she ,'babysitting' while her mother naps or works? Is she watching her siblings upstairs while her mother throws in some laundry downstairs?
Is there a cleaning lady in the house at the time?
Talk to the mother to clarify. That's what I'd want my daughters teacher to do. I wouldn't want the teacher and principal discussing my parenting and making decisions without asking me what's flying. Based on the answers, a further decision can be made.

shoshanim999

Thu, Jan 21 2016, 7:16 am

The obvious proper way to handle this is to contact the mom and tell her your concerns. To those on this board suggesting there is no legal obligation to do so- shame on you!!! That's like saying there is no obligation to be a mench. It would be very unnerving for the average person to have the authorities investigate child neglect. A simple 5 min phone call might resolve this. This is the danger of this site. People give really dumb advice.

amother

Pearl

Thu, Jan 21 2016, 7:17 am

I really don't see it as a big deal. My DD is super mature and at that age babysat for 5-10 minutes at a time. I would tell my neighbor in the next door apartment and they kept their door open and if I was worried would be a bit longer or if they were sleeping I put a baby monitor on to the neighbor. My DD of course felt BIG and I didn't tell her the monitor is on. This is for a few minutes though but my DD would feel like it was hours! She is so proud of it and I also tell people how my DD is so helpful and babysits her younger siblings so much. I do leave them with my cleaning lady who we had for years and I trust. But when I leave the house I ask my DD to babysit and ask cleaning lady if she needs anything. So I can see her saying she babysits for hours.
Social Services are quick to cause problems. I know of 2 stories where they came and observed and it was very tense for the family and was for NO GOOD reason. But they do not understand large frum families and they call a lot neglect. It's a normal thing in my neighborhood for kids to play outside on the block themselves. We come and check on them. But can totally happen that social services come and see kids alone that are as young as 6 yrs old sometimes.
I had another neighbor who always put a baby monitor by me instead of hiring a babysitter. (and her kids often woke up and I had to go up!) so you really have to be careful. I would ask their rav if you are uncomfortable asking mother because you also have question of being a malshin if it was for no good reason.

chavs

Thu, Jan 21 2016, 7:39 am

My 7 year old goes out every night with her friends donatello door ice-cream and ice skating.
She's also really good friends with an older boy called Peter who spends time with her alone in her bedroom.
As for babysitting, she takes more care of our baby than I do to the point that he thinks she's his mum!

Now
Donatello is a turtle and she is usually in her bed at night
Peter is Peter pan and he's invisible as well.
She is a lovely sister and loves cuddling and taking charge of our baby but she's certainly not in charge or his mum, she just loves him lots and is proud of herself.
She also says things like something happened years ago when it was in fact last week as she doesn't quite grasp the concept of time just yet.
I could come with lots more examples.

I'm not saying that you should ignore it but that perhaps getting more information might be a good idea before calling anyone.
If you knew this for sure I'd say make the call but it could very well be that once her mum popped out the house to get something at the front door and said to the girl that she was in charge and that this girl doesn't have a good grasp of time either( so one minute =two hours sort of thing).
Perhaps ask somebody who knows her or ask the mum herself. If you are worried though I'd make the call now, trust your instincts.