A dissenting view of the Rechnitz speech

kima

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:05 pm

For those who are focusing on the TV remark, I think you're missing the point. The idea is that everyone has their own opinion of what constitutes "negative influences". For some it's TV. For others, Internet, or going to a public library, or getting the NY Times, or having an OTD sibling, or whatever.

If you think that your own standard of what constitutes a negative influence is a justifiable reason to keep certain kids away from your kids then how are you not being as elitist as the people who don't want your kids around theirs because your dh works for a living?

thanks

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:10 pm

kima wrote:

As Mr. Rechnitz pointed out, it's only certain towns that that have this school problem. Primarily Lakewood, but also somewhat in Monsey, Brooklyn, etc. But most frum communities - Baltimore, Chicago, Miami, Cleveland, LA, etc. - don't have this problem. Why not? Because in every other community, there is room for various strands of frumkeit. But in Lakewood, only one kind is acceptable - black hat chareidi. This is the key.

IMHO, the root of the problem here isn't that the schools are elitist and don't want to accept kids. (I'm not denying they're elitist. I just don't see that as the root of the problem.) It's actually the parents and a community that won't accept that it's ok for their kids to go to a school that doesn't fit in with their own elitist attitudes that is the cause of the problem. These parents are the cause of their own misery. It's not other people's elitism towards them, but their very own elitism, that is the cause of all their suffering!

In many other communities. there is room for other strands of frumkeit AND the children go to the same school. The elitist attitude and exclusion of others is the root of the problem. Many of the oot communities mentioned have one large community school. I personally do not think the answer is to open many schools. I think we need to learn to get along, tolerate each others differences.

Last edited by thanks on Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

Leahh

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:17 pm

kima wrote:

So you are agreeing that it's a few parents that are causing the elitism problem by telling the school if you accept that child that has Internet in their home then I'm pulling my child out.
You rarely see parents not applying to a school because said school accepted a child from an Internet home. It's usually the other way around, where a parent currently in the school makes the demand of the school not to accept so and so. That causes the elitism.

youngishbear

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:24 pm

kima wrote:

Working is not a secular value it's an economic necessity. Discriminating against kids because their father needs to work is cruel.

Same for yichus issues.

Internet and whatever else was listed is actually a hashkafic concern.

kima

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:25 pm

Leahh wrote:

No. What this letter points out is that it's the standards of the whole community, not the few elites, who are causing the problem. At least, in regards to people being rejected because they're not the right kind of boy or from the right kind of family. The problem isn't a few arrogant individuals saying "I don't want that kid in the school"; it's a community that sets a norm where a kid who doesn't want to focus on gemara all day doesn't have a place. Or a kid from a family that has less strict standards isn't considered frum enough.

youngishbear

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:29 pm

kima wrote:

I don't get this.

Every school has the right to make rules.

If the rule of the school is no children of working parents then it would be one thing.

Afaik, it isn't.

(If it is, Lakewood needs schools catering to this demographic.)

The stupidity begins when kids are punished for reasons that their parents cannot control, not for breaking rules.

Leahh

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:31 pm

kima wrote:

And that norm was set by the schools and the elite parents that say if you accept so and so I'm pulling my kids out. The schools that listen to those parents are at fault. As are the schools that claim they are a cut above the rest (they almost all claim it).
It can't be the standards of the whole community because then you would have only a hand full of kids without a school but the numbers show it is a lot more than just a few. So all those not accepted are part of a different community? Then the Lakewood community is made up of a handful of elitists and everyone else living there are outsiders.

kima

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:34 pm

A simple way to think about what this letter is pointing out is to compare it to shidduchim. In the same way that people are rejected for a potential shidduch because of some perceived flaw in their (or their families) frumkeit, they are also rejected from schools due to those perceived flaws.

The solution with shidduchim isn't to kvetch how awful it is that all these people are rejecting you, demanding that they do. It's to realize that those people aren't right for you anyway, and try to match yourself to someone that accepts you for who you are.

People who don't fit the exact mold of the elitist paradigm, yet insist that heir kids get into these schools are like the aging spinster who is still insisting that she can't settle for anything but "the best boy", and that the rest of the world needs to appreciate that she's good enough for their top boys. She's the one causing her own pain. Not the people rejecting her. She'd be able to find happiness if she'd just stop being so arrogant and open her mind to the possibility that there are other options that would be a great fit for her.

Last edited by kima on Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

Leahh

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:36 pm

kima wrote:

Well, then, I'd love to hear why it's wrong for someone who dedicated their life to learning in kollel to not want their kids to be with kids who's father's work. There is obviously a different hashkafa between the two homes.

Not necessarily. Someone who is working can have the same standards in his home as someone who is learning. He can even have better standards than the kollel guy. Working doesn't take away from frumkeit or hashkafa. What he does, how he does it, how he acts in business dealings and with other people, and especially what he does in his free time is what speaks to his hashkafa. Not that he left kollel to support his family. That just shows he understands his obligations to his family and is a responsible man.
(I am not knocking the kollel guy that can afford to be there.)

Mevater

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 8:47 pm

kima wrote:

People who don't fit the exact mold of the elitist paradigm, yet insist that heir kids get into these schools are like the aging spinster who is still insisting that she can't settle for anything but "the best boy", and that the rest of the world needs to appreciate that she's good enough for their top boys.

Two totally different scenarios.

Reasons for rejecting a shidduch are most often looks, and personality. Thats chemistry.

You cant live with someone youre not attracted to. Spinsters have to live with that.

Reasons that most kids arent accepted to the more desirable schools are snotty pushy influential often very wealthy people who are allowed to pull strings by school administrators.

Despicable.

Leahh

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 9:01 pm

Mevater wrote:

Well said!

kima

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 9:04 pm

Leahh wrote:

You need to see your comments from the perspective of the other side. To you, "Working doesn't take away from frumkeit or hashkafa," but to plenty of people it does, which is exactly why they choose not to do it! (Do I need to dig up the old threads where kollel wives admit how disappointed they were when their husbands stopped learning and went to work?)

You say that "someone who is working can even have better standards than the kollel guy." And you know what else, someone who is MO can also have better standards than the kollel guy. But I don't think most people in Lakewood would be ok with sending their kids to a school with MO hashkafos. The fact is everyone has their standards which they think is right, and want those standards upheld, regardless of any exceptions to the rule. To you working is ok, to others it indicates a lesser madreiga. To some people having internet access is ok, but to others it indicates a flawed approach.

The fact is if you think your worldview is one that is superior to other people, and that the way you live your life is superior to how others live their lives, then you are being elitist towards those other groups. That is the very definition of what being elitist means. If you subscribe to a hashkafa where those who work are on a lower madreiga than those who learn, then you are being elitist towards those people. And if you subscribe to a hashkafa that says that if you have internet in your home you are on a lower level than those who don't have it, then you are being elitist towards those people.

amother

Blue

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 9:15 pm

A few points:

Lakewood doesn't want more modern schools to open up they want people that they deem modern to move out of Lakewood. They are also afraid that if modern schools open up it will bring more modern people to Lakewood.

A lot of people that are rejected don't have Internet in their homes. I don't know where rechnitz got this internet thing from because I live here for fifteen years and I have never ever heard someone being rejected because they have. Internet.

Also a lot of people being rejected are frum regular people and even kollel people are rejected. Most people that are rejected are because they are nobody's in lakewoods eye or they don't have pull. If you don't know someone wealthy that gives to the school or you don't have a last name with yichus you are not getting in. Your frumkeit level doesn't matter.