A dissenting view of the Rechnitz speech

Leahh

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 9:20 pm

kima wrote:

You need to see your comments from the perspective of the other side. To you, "Working doesn't take away from frumkeit or hashkafa," but to plenty of people it does, which is exactly why they choose not to do it! (Do I need to dig up the old threads where kollel wives admit how disappointed they were when their husbands stopped learning and went to work?)

You say that "someone who is working can even have better standards than the kollel guy." And you know what else, someone who is MO can also have better standards than the kollel guy. But I don't think most people in Lakewood would be ok with sending their kids to a school with MO hashkafos. The fact is everyone has their standards which they think is right, and want those standards upheld, regardless of any exceptions to the rule. To you working is ok, to others it indicates a lesser madreiga. To some people having internet access is ok, but to others it indicates a flawed approach.

The fact is if you think your worldview is one that is superior to other people, and that the way you live your life is superior to how others live their lives, then you are being elitist towards those other groups. That is the very definition of what being elitist means. If you subscribe to a hashkafa where those who work are on a lower madreiga than those who learn, then you are being elitist towards those people. And if you subscribe to a hashkafa that says that if you have internet in your home you are on a lower level than those who don't have it, then you are being elitist towards those people.

I have to say that I think the kollel vs working argument is really not the issue. A large majority of Lakewood families today have working fathers. There are probably only 1 or 2 schools that require the father to still be in kollel for kids to be accepted. So I don't think this debate really belongs to this thread.
That said, I worked for a guy that lived in Lakewood and was in kollel for a lot of years before going out to work. When I worked for him he had been working for about 4 or 5 years already. He may have gotten schar for sitting and learning all those years but he lost it all the minute he went to work because he didn't know how to treat another human being. Not those above hom, equal to him, or below him. I was coming from a job working for another guy that probably did not sit in kollel after his marriage, if yes only for a year or two, and he knew how to treat every person that crossed his path with respect.
So looking at it from the other side; being in kollel doesn't make a person a mentsch.
But this is not kollel vs working argument and I don't believe the school issue is either.
I also don't believe MO is valid to this discussion. They are such opposite ends of the spectrum. Even kollel people can agree that a man who goes out to work to support his family after sitting in kollel for a few years (or even a man that works sooner because he doesnt have the zitz fleish to sit and learn) can be similar in hashkafa to a man still in kollel. Noone is claiming that a MO family is similar in hashkafa to a yeshivish family.

Last edited by Leahh on Sat, Jan 30 2016, 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

kima

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 9:26 pm

amother wrote:

A few points:

Lakewood doesn't want more modern schools to open up they want people that they deem modern to move out of Lakewood. They are also afraid that if modern schools open up it will bring more modern people to Lakewood.

A lot of people that are rejected don't have Internet in their homes. I don't know where rechnitz got this internet thing from because I live here for fifteen years and I have never ever heard someone being rejected because they have. Internet.

Also a lot of people being rejected are frum regular people and even kollel people are rejected. Most people that are rejected are because they are nobody's in lakewoods eye or they don't have pull. If you don't know someone wealthy that gives to the school or you don't have a last name with yichus you are not getting in. Your frumkeit level doesn't matter.

To the degree that the issue is all about money and yichus, I'd agree that my friend's points aren't relevant. However, I was under the impression that the "not good enough/not frum enough" factor indeed plays a part, and I have a number of nephews and cousins who were in mesivtas and "asked to leave" precisely for this reason. (Not in Lakewood specifically, but it was yeshivish black-hat yeshivas.) So I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that if it plays a part in kicking a kid out (sorry, "asking him to leave"), it would play a part in deciding whether to accept him in the first place.

WhatFor

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 9:36 pm

fmt4 wrote:

That is a really interesting point.

Whatfor, you should've read the whole thing. It does not put him down, and I fail to see how his father- in- law's petirah has anything to do with it.

I have now read the whole thing and I still think this is written in substantially poor taste, regardless of whether I agree with the objective, because it references Rechnitz directly (even saying "you" toward the end) and calling him elitist at one of the most painful points in a person's life.
I am all for having a rational debate about issues, regardless about people's feelings on the topic, actually. And if this letter had not made specific comments about Rechnitz and spoke as a general response to the Lakewood issue, it would not have bothered me.
But I am not for challenging a person's character at a point in their life when they are unable to respond, and calling someone elitist and saying their attitude is a part of the problem, regardless of whether it is true or not, is challenging his character.
On any other forum and debate, my commentary would end there. However, being as this is a Jewish chat forum for Orthodox women, I do expect a certain level of empathy and compassion toward a man from the same community who is literally on his way to his father-in-law's funeral and I type this. Truthfully and happily, I don't think most of the commentary after the original post on this forum attacks Rechnitz at all, and it did steer toward the general issue. I do hope the person who wrote the letter did so before his father-in-law passed away. I expect that when people make comments about people, even public figures, they realize they're talking about a real person, and the thought of that real person burying their father-in-law should trigger some hesitation about posting a rebuke on his character at that very time. As much as I favor the idea and the debate over personal emotions, there's a certain level of empathy I expect from people, a level such that it would feel uncomfortable to post such a thing about a man when you know he is in middle of burying his wife's father. So no, this is not relevant to the specific issue that's being discussed. But in the larger scheme of things, I do find it relevant.

kima

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 9:47 pm

WhatFor wrote:

A) You're right, it could have been written nicer, but it wasn't really meant to be posted publicly, so the person wasn't concerning herself with that.

B) It was indeed written before his FIL died (I doubt she even realized his FIL was on his deathbed).

C) The point being made was a general one, it wasn't meant to be about Rechnitz at all, but his own words highlighted very well a prime example of the issue she was pointing out.

D) The fact is that Rechnitz gave the speech, he wrote the letter, and he is being hailed as a trailblazing anti-establishment revolutionary. You can't have someone being lauded in that way and then also say he is off-limits from having his ideas critically analyzed in light of the very issues he himself is bringing up as a topic of discussion.

Last edited by kima on Sat, Jan 30 2016, 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

Mevater

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 9:47 pm

kima wrote:

And according to Rechnitz, Lakewood *yeshivas* are an unsustainable elitist endeaver which has lead to much pain and suffering of innocent people.

No way! According to Rechnitz, as mentioned by him in his speech, Lakewood Yeshivas are beautiful M'komei Torah, where the sounds of innocent voices davening and reciting Torah are heard day and night, and where learners dont look up to see who enters a room because theyre so engrossed in Torah learning.

Unfortunately some in Lakewood, who are power hungry with inflated superiority complexes and huge egos, big-shots who want to pull strings and be pushy, who sometimes brag about having this power, are often given the reigns/control/drivers seat of who enters and who doesnt enter the many Mkomei Torah, simply because they dont know the people wanting to get in and have no interest in finding out.

WhatFor

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 10:07 pm

kima wrote:

A) You're right, it could have been written nicer, but it wasn't really meant to be posted publicly, so the person wasn't concerning herself with that.

Fair, but you posted it publicly right now, on the night of his FIL's levaya. And it directly challenges his character.

kima wrote:

B) It was indeed written before his FIL died (I doubt she even realized his FIL was on his deathbed).

But again, it was posted now.

kima wrote:

C) The point being made was a general one, it wasn't meant to be about Rechnitz at all, but his own words highlighted very well a prime example of the issue she was pointing out.

Fair, and this same point could have been made now without reference to him.

kima wrote:

D) The fact is that Rechnitz gave the speech, he wrote the letter, and he is being hailed as a trailblazing anti-establishment revolutionary. You can't have someone being lauded in that way and then also say he is off-limits from having his ideas critically analyzed in light of the very issues he himself is bringing up as a topic of discussion.

I would not support that at all which is why I have no made such an assertion. The fact is, this issue will still be here next week. The fact is that he brought up this issue before his FIL passed away on Thursday night. The fact is that we can hold off on attacking his character right now for at least another week and still address all the issues that need to be addressed.
Of course, you're technically right. People can say whatever the hell they want right now. It's just troubling to me that someone can have an image in their head of a man accompanying his FIL to be buried and still think to themselves, "This man's character is a big part of the problem. I need to post this about him right now." (Clicks submit.) It's not about the issue, actually, right now. It's about having a sense of compassion toward another human being who is (and I can't emphasize this enough) literally burying his father right now, and thinking, "You know, maybe I'll edit out the portions that are attacking him and just make my point without that. Because something just doesn't feel right about publicly disparaging a man while he's accompanying his FIL's body to be buried." That's it. Basic empathy.

gold21

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 10:10 pm

WhatFor wrote:

Like.

amother

Blue

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 10:23 pm

The thing is rechnitz doesnt live in Lakewood and he's right it's a big problem people claiming about their neighbors but that is only 10 percent of the problem. Rechnitz is acting as if this is the whole problem and it's not. It's horrible but this is not the full solution.

The real problem is they unless you have money or know someone with money or you have a big last name you are a nobody and you will not get into any school.

Also if you have a big last name ten neighbors can come in and threaten the schools and they will still take this person in because of his name or because of money so obviously this is not the biggest issue this elitist. I don't know why rechnitz is making this the big issue but it really isn't.

The biggest issue is that if you don't have connections none cares about you.

gittelchana

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 10:53 pm

kima wrote:

Whoever thinks that working takes away from your Frumkeit is downright wrong and against Torah. There are so many sources for this. I don't have to start quoting.

I understand the desire to learn Torah your whole life. Yissachar-Zevulun partnerships have existed since forever. But to think that working makes you less frum??? Puke

I know it exists out there. Doesn't make it any less Puke

Notsobusy

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 10:57 pm

amother wrote:

I totally agree with your first paragraph, not so much with the rest.

While there are some people who will call the schools not to accept other people, they are very few. I posted on one of the other thread about this that I know one such person and she is a nasty person altogether. Even if there are such people, the schools are wrong for listening to them, so the schools are still more wrong. And if the schools wouldn't listen, then presumably the people who are calling would stop making those calls. So again, it's up to the schools to stop it.

The real problem is that there are not enough schools in Lakewood. That leads to a situation where the schools can be picky about who they accept. Naturally they end up accepting the people who are going to give them money, or who they feel they owe something to or they will gain something from. While not fair to everyone else, I'm not sure if you can blame them.

Another problem in Lakewood is the lack of "other" schools. There are a lot of not yeshivish families here, and we all need a place to send our children to school. Many of our not yeshivish husbands learned in BMG. Some people like to blame it on "other" people moving in who are not connected to BMG, but even if that's true, they still need a place to send their kids. If the powers that be in Lakewood would allow more lenient schools to open, there wouldn't be this whole issue of people trying to get kids into schools "where they don't belong".

amother

Blue

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 11:09 pm

Last year a really wealthy person the husband was caught doing immoral things so immoral that he was in the ny post that the non jews even viewed this as immoral and this guys neighbors called a certain school not to let the daughter in to the top high school in Lakewood that everyone would agree is the top and what do you know this immoral guy will got his daughter in even with phone calls because he donated over one million dollars.

I'm saying this story because no one knows who I am talking about.

My point is that the schools only listen to parents when they weren't going to take the child in anyways. If there was a chick they were going to take in they will not listen to parents.

Blaming parents is avoiding the real issue.

Rubber Ducky

Sat, Jan 30 2016, 11:14 pm

glutenless wrote:

...Another problem in Lakewood is the lack of "other" schools. There are a lot of not yeshivish families here, and we all need a place to send our children to school. Many of our not yeshivish husbands learned in BMG. Some people like to blame it on "other" people moving in who are not connected to BMG, but even if that's true, they still need a place to send their kids. If the powers that be in Lakewood would allow more lenient schools to open, there wouldn't be this whole issue of people trying to get kids into schools "where they don't belong".

I agree that Lakewood's explosive growth is fueling the problem. Why aren't any "more lenient" schools opening in nearby towns?