Halachic View on Vaccines

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> School age children

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amother

Linen

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 7:10 pm

suremom wrote:

Thats easy! The same reason he created curly and straight hair!

amother

Babypink

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 7:39 pm

suremom wrote:

those are 2 very different points. NO ONE is arguing with healing only the preventing part.

Prevention is an issue?
Alright...
Don't wear seat belts.
Don't wash your hands, ever.
Don't use purified water.
Don't turn the heat or air condition on.
Don't use a doctor or midwife for birth.
Don't do well visits.
Don't watch what you eat: eat as much trams fat as possible.
Don't bathe until you're really smelly.
Don't wash laundry.
Don't take vitamins.
Don't do anything unless you need it in the moment....
Hmmm???

Scrabble123

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 7:49 pm

The vitamin K shot has nothing to do with a bris. It's given because a percentage of babies are born with a disorder where they have low vitamin K levels and their blood does not clot properly. If untreated, these babies can develop internally bleeding (including serious, life threatening bleeding such cases as brain bleeds) which require surgery. There are a few types of vitamin K deficiency. The internal bleeding can occur days, weeks, or even months after birth... Here is an article that describes it well http://evidencebasedbirth.com/.....orns/

amother

Bronze

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 8:03 pm

amother wrote:

She is obviously referring to prevention medicines which for the most part are unnecessary and can sometimes have devastating side effects. Like the study quoted above with the leukemia in babies, like long term side effects numerous people have that studies are linking to vaccines... I wish there would be some way to screen which baby and child needs which preventive measures and not just give everything automatically across the board.

amother

Honeydew

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 8:30 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Think1st, or person with an identical agenda and posting style, you're bypassing an important theological question. Why did G-d create man to be so susceptible to disease and suffering and death, if we are created in His image? Surely you must recognize that humans get sick and die?

So there are many scientist and doctors and public health officials who work on keeping us healthy and alive. Unless cvs you are suggesting that if you had a sick child you would just leave them to die cvs then you agree with that effort, and don't consider healing and preventing illness against our religion. We aren't Christian scientists.

He did NOT!!!
Death was brought on us by trying to outsmart G-D, & eating from the forbidden tree

The RAMBAM guarantees you will be healthy for life if you follow his lifestyle (unless a major epidemic hits, NOT chicken pox)

Treating a sick child is a mitzvah, preforming medical procedures on perfectly healthy people, a totally different ball game. forbidden by brisker Rav, Igros Moshe & more.

amother

Linen

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 8:44 pm

amother wrote:

So you follow the Rambams lifestyle and believe no ailment will ever come upon you???? This just gets better and better

Reminds me of the famous story of the boy who was doing the mitvah of shiluach hakan and kibud av vaem and fell out of the tree and died. But... the Torah promises arichas yamim for both!!

I really never asked a shaila but according to this plastic surgery, lasik surgery, non carcinogenic mole removal, nose jobs or anything else that is elective is assur. I never heard of this. Could be people hold like this and Im wrong, but I never heard of it and I know people who hold by R Moshe

cnc

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 8:47 pm

amother wrote:

There are actually many people that hold that elective surgeries such as the ones you listed above are not permitted.

amother

Honeydew

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 8:49 pm

rydys wrote:

vitamin K shots are given at birth to prevent spontaeous bleeding in the newborns. This was a common cause of newborn death prior to the initiation of vit K shots. It has nothing to do with bris milah. However, there is a halacha that if two babies in a family die from bleeding after the bris, it is ossur to do a bris on any further babies in the family. When is the last time you heard of a baby bleeding to death after a bris?

[ I was at a bris, baby did get k shot & only 1 mohel out of the 3 on site was able to stop the bleeding]

As far as the argument that Hashem made the world and made our bodies a certain way and we should not interfere, I think that is wrong. The torah has a mitzva for doctors to heal people, preventative medicine included. "Vrapo Yirapeh" is not PERMISSION for a doctor to heal, it is an IMPERITIVE for a doctor to heal. If a doctor comes upon a person who he can heal and does not, he is chayav for not healing him.

[ Not to mess with healthy babies]

Our bodies were not made perfect. We are susceptable to disease and injury and simply saying Hashem made us a certain way so we should stay that way is wrong. We also know that nishtana hateva, our bodies have changed. Due to sfaika dyoma we have 2 days of Y"T in chutz laaretz for every Y"T except Yom Kippur. The Gemara discusses this and it is because it would be "difficult" to fast 2 days. Today it would be dangerous, not difficult for most people to fast 2 days. That is a real change. A woman is a meinekes for 2 years after childbirth because nursing kept them clean for 2 full years. Today we see the results of women who rely on nursing for birth control. It does not work.

[ it works perfectly for healthy people who have a punctual cycle ]

In the past, before we had medications and vaccines, the life expectancies were 20-30 years less than they are now. A large percentage of families had lost at least one child to childhood illnesses and death during childbirth was common. Today B"H we are shocked to hear of the death of a child and few women die during childbirth.

The Torah discusses that in the last tekufa before Moshiach there will be an explosion of chochma in the scientific fields. We see this with the surge of technology that is progressing at a rapid pace as well as advances in the medical field. We have an obligation to use the chochmos that Hashem gives us to the best of our ability.

Through these chochmos we know that things change and our understanding of the works of the world change. We can now show that some of what the Rambam wrote about medicine is not correct,

[Waht?]

but it was the best he could do with what he had in his times. We are not allowed to rely on the Sefer Harefuos because they dont apply in our times. Halachic decisions in each generation have to be based on the latest in medical knowlege in each generation and Rabonim like the Skvere Rebbe who specialize in medical Halacha certainly do their own research and keep up with medical research.

Dr. Yashar Hirshaut, MD, Skvere Rebbe's Oncologyst opposes Flu shot

cnc

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 8:52 pm

amother wrote:

Dr. Yashar Hirshaut, MD, Skvere Rebbe's Oncologyst opposes Flu shot

Off topic, but the flu shot is an entirely separate category and does not prove that someone is anti-vaccination.

I vax fully besides for the flu shot.

amother

Linen

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 8:55 pm

cnc wrote:

There are actually many people that hold that elective surgeries such as the ones you listed above are not permitted.

K. Tx. Im actually gonna look into it. I finally learned something new here LOL

suremom

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 10:32 pm

double post

Last edited by suremom on Thu, Mar 17 2016, 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

suremom

Thu, Mar 17 2016, 10:33 pm

I am writing this from my phone so I cant bring sources and please excuse my terminology.
vit k shot regulates the blood. if its to thick or thin it will bring it to the right level. a babys blood needs to be thin (therefore low vit k levels) so that the mothers stem cells passed thru the cord can enter the babys brain easily. once high dose of vit k is present in the blood it prevent the heaver stem cells from mom to flow into brain. therefore the blood needs to be thin. in recents years drs have finally admitted that leaving the cord pulsing (not clamping right away) has a lot of benefits to the baby even in later years. the problem was that the cord was clamped the second the baby was born so the blood from the cord (1/3 of the blood the baby actually has in its body) didnt get to the baby. and it didnt make a difference in vit k level. but if you leave the cord pulsing until its done before clamping then its ok not to give vit k so the stem cells reach the brain and there is less of a chance of bleeding in the brain. im rambling a bit because its hard to type from my phone but really you should each do your own research and not really on me (which I know you anyways wont...) this is one of the reasons there are more but this one seemed the most important to me.

Maybe

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:01 am

amother wrote:

Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis (1818 – 1865), also Ignác Semmelweis (born Semmelweis Ignác Fülöp), a Hungarian physician the “saviour of mothers” discovered, in 1847, that the incidence of puerperal fever, also known as childbed fever could be drastically cut by use of hand washing standards in obstetrical clinics

In 1865 he was locked up in amental institution, & died there only 14 days later, possibly after being severely beaten by guards.

The Semmelweis reflex or “Semmelweis effect” is a metaphor for the reflex-like tendency to reject new evidence or new knowledge because it contradicts established norms

http://semmelweis.org/about/dr.....aphy/

Last edited by Maybe on Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:35 am; edited 2 times in total

amother

Linen

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 12:15 am

Maybe wrote:

Is this a non sequitur?

marina

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 1:15 am

amother wrote:

http://www.vaclib.org/basic/vitamin-k.htm

When MDs think they need to fix G-d's "mistakes" u end up with more cancer

Chart in link shows how coagulants drop & rise, just in time for bris. We should trust G-d, at least as much as this Christian does

On the 8th day, the amount of prothrombin present actually is elevated above 100% of normal—and is the only day in the male’s life in which this will be the case under normal conditions. If surgery is to be performed, day 8 is the perfect day to do it. Vitamin K and prothrombin levels are at their peak. Dr. McMillen observed:

Abraham did not pick the eighth day after many centuries of trial-and-error experiments. Neither he nor any of his company from the ancient city of Ur in the Chaldees ever had been circumcised. It was a day picked by the Creator of vitamin K (1984, p. 93).

Even the blind can see the meticulous planning of our creator, so when the Doctor says we NEED to fix G-Ds mistakes in healthy babies, Do you trust M-D or G-D ?????

If a new baby, as God's creation, is perfect and needs no "fixing," not sure why you'd have a bris at all.

marina

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 1:25 am

suremom wrote:

You still didnt answer my question. why did hashem make the babies vit. k deficient until the eight day?

If your theory is that it is because of the bris, perhaps you can explain why every baby who doesn't ever get a bris experiences the same surge. You know, like girls?

Last edited by marina on Fri, Mar 18 2016, 1:37 am; edited 1 time in total

marina

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 1:28 am

amother wrote:

The RAMBAM guarantees you will be healthy for life if you follow his lifestyle (unless a major epidemic hits, NOT chicken pox)

Yes, you will be healthy for life, right up until the point that you die. Then the guarantee doesn't work anymore, I'd guess.

marina

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 1:35 am

amother wrote:

Vitamin k is the 1st injection they force on us, do you trust them, or G-d?

Well, since you asked. God kills 150,000 people every day. So I probs trust doctors more.

suremom

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 7:47 am

marina wrote:

If a new baby, as God's creation, is perfect and needs no "fixing," not sure why you'd have a bris at all.

this is actually a great question that was asked and answered by many previous great minds. I suggest you ask someone well versed in torah this one.

suremom

Fri, Mar 18 2016, 7:49 am

marina wrote:

If your theory is that it is because of the bris, perhaps you can explain why every baby who doesn't ever get a bris experiences the same surge. You know, like girls?

I never wrote it has anything to do with the bris. Where do you take that from?

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