Being judgemental | Imamother

Seas

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:24 pm

mtzadhasheini wrote:

Now let's talk about you. I think that you are coming to realise that you do have a bit of a problem in this area. That's why you started the thread.

On the contrary, I'm one of the least judgemental people you'll come across. I know people are flawed and there are many reasons why they might act they way they do. I don't condemn anyone (well hardly anyone, the exception being a frum person who went otd and is now a mechallel Shabbos).

At our Shabbos table we have all kinds of people, with varying levels religiosity (but only shoimrei Shabbos) and all are equally treated with respect and dignity. I never deign to judge others for their misdeeds, and certainly never think that had I been in their position I'd have been better.

However, and this is the crux of the matter, I would never ever justify or condone an action or even view that is not 100% according to the Torah. The fact that the person who did the action has difficulties on her life doesn't make the actual action right.

I use the example of 1+1 because if your child comes home and is upset about her grade and she complains that she misunderstood the question, you can sympathise with her and really feel for her. However, that still doesn't make a wrong answer right. What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong.

The problem is that people often get 'married' to their actions or views, so that any criticism or objection is taken personally. In truth the actions can be judged independently of the person who did them.

Last edited by Seas on Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

Coffee Addict

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:26 pm

amother wrote:

You can do whatever you like, most of us live in free countries.

You can justify all you want, our brains have endless capacity for rationalization.

But if you don't want to annoy the hell out of everyone you come into contact with, you will be an adult and keep whatever judgements you do make to yourself.

(And - when you're ready for the next step - train your brain to stop viewing every action every person does in life as something to be judged, whether for good or bad. It. Is. None. Of. Your. Business.)

This! Simple as that!

imasinger

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:33 pm

Seas wrote:

I use the example of 1+1 because if your child comes home and is upset about her grade and she complains that she misunderstood the question, you can sympathise with her and really feel for her. However, that still doesn't make a wrong answer right. What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong.

Even in math, there can be complications. For example, in a binary system, 1+1=10.

Kol vachomer for us, who have a tradition of eilu v'eilu.

amother

Ginger

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:33 pm

Dear Lord, if you are one of the least judgemental people I've come across, I am moving to Mars and living in a cave.

Since when does not condoning or justifying what you think is not 100% according to the Torah (I'm sure that if someone stated a word for word translation from many meforshim, you'd be bashing them all thread long), mean posting consistently annoying and hurtful comments that derail the thread and in general make what is supposed to be a safe place unpleasant and irritating?

I don't think I will post further in this thread. I've said what I have to say to you.

If you are not Sue Danym reincarnated, or a bored teenager looking for some action, I extend to you much heartfelt sympathy. You have a long journey ahead. I give you a bracha you should have the wisdom to see things with an ayin tova, and develop yourself so that you can move past black and white thinking and recognize the nuances in life.

Good luck.

gilamom

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:38 pm

Seas wrote:

You're judging according to your version/how you see the Torah. It's not so clear cut. My sister, brother in law, second cousin, neighbor etc. see and understand Torah differently, it's not my place to judge them-I believe Hashem loves them unconditionally for what they DO, it's not my place to put them down because of what they DON'T do.

MitzadSheini

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 9:59 pm

Seas wrote:

Ok seas, are you really truly ready to tracker this head on? Because I see you have the ability to judge bchav zechut. You are judging YOURSELF beautifully bchav zechut. Much better than I can at this point, although believe me I am trying as hard as I can.

"I know people are flawed " that is a judgmental statement.

You condemn people who have gone otd. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW THE PERSON WAS RAISED, WHAT PERSONAL STRUGGLES THEY HAVE , or WHAT IS GOING ON IN THEIR HEAD AND HEART. Or, more importantly, what part this plays in Hashem's overall plan.

"...but only shomrei shabbas" yes shabbas is a crucial crucial aspect of our Torah. But you don't know why a certain neshama has been bought down into this world in its present incarnation. Maybe they are there to help YOU in your avoda to learn to be dan lchav zechut.

"judge others for their misdeeds" this statement is itself judgmental. For *you* it would be a good idea to assume that there are no "misdeeds".

You can do this Seas. Just let go of all judgment. Leave it up to Hashem to judge. He is the Dayan Emet.

tichellady

Thu, Apr 14 2016, 11:01 pm

I actually understand what the op is saying and perhaps she is not judgmental but she seems to be very sure that she always knows what's right and what's wrong. That's what scares me. There seems to be very little open mindedness. There is room for different opinions within halakha but she seems to see things in a more black and white way.

As we saw in a different post earlier today, she made it clear that it is wrong not to eat meat on yomtov ( not that anyone was asking her opinion). There are halakhic opinions that hold that you should eat food you like on yomtov, and if you don't like meat and wine, you should skip them. There are also rabbis who think that being vegetarian is a holy practice. I had two rabbis in seminary who were vegetarians for religious reasons ( one was a follower of Rav kook). There's no need to put down's people's religious practices because they are different from yours. You can both be right.

greenfire

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 2:16 am

mtzadhasheini wrote:

...
You can do this Seas. Just let go of all judgment. Leave it up to Hashem to judge. He is the Dayan Emet.

that might be difficult for someone who thinks she is god ...

but there are many people out there wishing for the same role

pick a # and go to the back of the line :arrow:

amother

Babypink

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 7:14 am

Of course it is great if a person can go through life always judging people favorably. There is no need to look at people's actions with the purpose of judging them. However, we do need to have rules to live by, and if someone is breaking the rules, that can be hard to see without feeling sad about it. If a group of formerly teenagers is standing around and smoking on Shabbos, no you can't really say they are all smoking for medical reasons. How many people do you know who health is dependent on smoking?

However, I would certainly hope that we can see these people as people who are in pain. I also hope nobody would tell them they are doing the wrong thing- I think they are quite aware of it and are happy about it for now.

When I see people doing things against Halacha, I might not notice, or I might feel badly for the person. I do not think the person is bad.

It is not politically correct nowadays to say another person's lack of observance goes against the Torah, but there are definitely actions that are wrong. The same people who are so quick to say don't judge are often quick to call people racists if we don't love blacks like you think we should.

Dovd HaMelech wrote in Tehillim, Perek 119, "Palgei Mayim Yardu Ainai Al Lo Shamru Torasecha". But that was before these days of extreme open-mindedness.

In short, I agree with Seas to a large degree about feeling that actions are wrong, but am strongly against saying anything about it.

Posting anonymously for now because I read the rest of this thread already and I know how unpopular my opinion is here.

chavs

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 7:47 am

Seas wrote:

That is the funniest thing I've read yet, thank you for the laugh!

HindaRochel

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 8:02 am

greenfire wrote:

that might be difficult for someone who thinks she is god ...

but there are many people out there wishing for the same role

pick a # and go to the back of the line :arrow:

^apropos of this, and you are correct @greenfire, I have this little poem I like to recite

I fear you have been mistaken-
We've no need of your application,
The role of G-d is taken
So find another job!

amother

Wine

Fri, Apr 15 2016, 8:14 am

I think you it partially right seas.

Torah defines what is right or wrong- in a very black and white way. So for example if someone murders; no matter what motivated to do so, or his history, or his state of mental health the action of murder is wrong.

BUT. The Torah is amazingly complex. There are so many conditions and exceptions, different opinions and shittos of tanaim, amoraim, rishonim, and achronim. Our present day poskim base their opinions off of the boundless sefarim and have the ability to give heterim based off of these opinions.

Going back to the murderer his mental health may put him into the category of a Shoteh- who is not responsible for his actions. Bais din would not be able to punish him and after 120 he won't be considered responsible for his very wrong actions.

On top of all this people are flawed. So people do things that are wrong for them according to the Torah. This does not give anyone a right to judge them - we have a torah obligation to to be dan lekaf zechus. HKB"H is the only one who is allowed to judge, because he is a dayan emes and knows the full picture.

What is ok ( in my opinion) is to judge actions on a theoretical level. Saying what X did was wrong but he is still a good person is not being dan lekaf zechus.

Saying X action is wrong is fine.

Being dan lekaf zechus is saying X is a good person and even though he did X action which SEEMS wrong he must have a good reason for doing what he is doing ( driving on shabbos because of pikuach nefesh) or doesn't know that there is something wrong with his action.

Whether this is in fact the case is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS its Hashems business.