Being judgemental | Imamother

Seas

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 4:24 pm

LittleDucky wrote:

Just chiming in for the first time here but been super busy (duh! Who isn't this week?) and I must say this thread is interesting and thought provoking.
Can Emes be compromised for sholom?
Yes. Aharon Hakohein. Sometimes all a person needs is the balance and then it can be worked out. In my experience, sometimes a person needs to be placated/given acts of sholom and then can be helped to reach a "good place". Sholom bayis 101 anyone? They can be told later, when calm and collected, how you felt/why what they did was unacceptable. But in the moment? Not going to work.

There is a reason "the whole nation mourned for Aharon".

Quite right. But the only time we find this allowance is when it comes to things bein odom lechaveiro. When it comes to Hashem's torah we don't have the right to compromise.

heidi

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 4:24 pm

Seas wrote:

Any OTD who's mechallel Shabbos wouldn't be an acquaintance of mine anymore.

However, without going into detail, we did have a similar situation recently with a close relative, and the provisios were for him to wear a kappel and muted clothing. Of course I wouldn't allow chillul Shabbos or any issurim under my roof at all.

Seas, you seem quite single minded and very very serious (I'm talking burka lady serious) about your brand of Judaism.
Can I ask where using the internet freely jibes with that?

Seas

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 4:33 pm

Maya wrote:

I don't see where this rant about technology is relevant to my post. My point was that the leadership, in every sect and of every era, makes their own new rules based on the issues of their day. To claim that some sects are following millennia of mesorah while others are not is ridiculous, as everyone is doing the same thing. I simply picked the issues of Internet and radical tznius to highlight my point.

At first I thought you were just being snide so I just ignored it, but now I see you believe what you write.

When new situations and nisyonos arise the rabbonim can apply their halachic knowledge to that particular situation. The way to do that is by referring to millennia of mesorah and seeing how the halachic norm viewed similar situations, or at least this kind of thing. This is called precedent, and lehavdil the secular courts work the same way.

There's no ban on 'technology' per se, only on having unnecessary and unfiltered access to the internet. There's actually plenty of precedent and torah texts supporting this.

As to what you term 'radical' tznius, if you go back to pre-haskalah times this was the norm. Even pre-war tznius in most chassidish communities was on a much higher level than t is today. When rabbonim lean towards gender-segregation (for example Mehadrin buses), they're applying millennia of mesorah to this new situation.

There's no 'emunas chachamim' involved here, only traditional paskening according to the accepted rules.

Seas

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 4:37 pm

heidi wrote:

Seas, you seem quite single minded and very very serious (I'm talking burka lady serious) about your brand of Judaism.
Can I ask where using the internet freely jibes with that?

I'll answer you, but first please explain why you see absolute intolerance to chillul Shabbos as an extreme 'single minded burka lady serious' position. Shouldn't that be the standard frum mindset?

Maya

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 4:48 pm

Seas wrote:

It's obvious you don't know your Jewish history all that well, but that's okay. We can't all be good at everything.

cnc

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 4:54 pm

Maya wrote:

It's obvious you don't know your Jewish history all that well, but that's okay. We can't all be good at everything.

Exactly this.

What Seas is saying most certainly doesn't jive with my grandparents recollections of the shtetl.

greenfire

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 4:55 pm

Seas wrote:

I'll happily answer anyone who posts a question or rebuttal under her own sn. If you haven't the guts to do that don't expect a reply.

what are you now - a lawyer ? this isn't a courtroom ... there are no rebuttals

unless yael hired you to drive us crazy ...

unless you're a man getting his groove off ...

unless NOTHING ...

GO AWAY !!!

amother

Ginger

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 5:14 pm

Seas wrote:

Right.

Except that back in the shtetl days, we had the Chassam Sofer who held that the way for his community to deal with the rampant assimilation (yes! in the shtetl! where there was no internet!) was to isolate and insulate, and reject innovation.

And Rav Samson Refoel Hirsch who held that the way for his community to deal with the rampant assimilation was Torah im derech eretz - to live with both Torah and modernity, not to reject it.

Two tzaddikim. Two radically different approaches. In the shtetl.

Today we have rabbanim who feel that the way to deal with the internet is to asser all non-business/essential internet. And we also have rabbanim who feel that the way to deal with the internet is to recognize its capacity not only for bad, but for good, and learn how to use it properly with common sense.

And yes, I simplified all this a lot - there are so many nuances and angles I left out that are worthy of discussion!

But basically - the point is there is no One Way. There is One G-d. We as frum Jews accept and believe that. But G-d made different people. Different paths.

And no, we don't have the power to decide that only one way is worthy and and all others are heretical.

A suggestion: Maybe you should start learning Gemara, just to see the machlokes in things which you think are 100% wrong or right, and to see how the greatest scholars still loved and respected each other even if they thought the other one was wrong.

Remember, sefirah is coming up. A little bit of respect and courtesy from all of us for different views would be nice.

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 5:30 pm

Seas wrote:

Exactly. For me chillul Shabbos is so abhorrent that it's my red line, and I won't accept or mix with an OTD who's mechallel Shabbos (it's different when someone is a tinok shenishba).

Ironically, al pi halacha (which if you think about it is the very basis of being DLKZ), there's a mitzvah to be DLKZ a 'get-withholder' but not a mechallel Shabbos.

I'm gong anon for obvious reasons. If you choose to ignore me, so be it, but I would like to hear your response.
I was otd for a while and did not keep shabbos. It was through the love and acceptance of frum friends, family and teachers that I came to appreciate and keep Shabbos. If everyone had your mentality of not accepting an otd-er who is mechalel shabbos, I'd not be frum today.
So how would you respond to that?

LittleDucky

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 5:53 pm

Maya wrote:

It's obvious you don't know your Jewish history all that well, but that's okay. We can't all be good at everything.

History... It's such a fickle thing...

amother

Aqua

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 6:32 pm

amother wrote:

Thank you for posting this! I am in the same exact situation as you are. It was the love of my mentors that brought me back. In fact, my relationship with one of them started when one of them heard of my chillul shabbos and called me into her office to let me know that she loves me, and to give me warmth and encouragement.

That is not to say that she didn't convey her absolute horror and shock at my chillul shabbos. She was shaking as she explained to me the severity of my actions, and I promised her that I'd never do it again at the end of our meeting.

If she had pushed me away the way that you would, Seas, I would not be the frum woman I am today. She very strongly disapproved of my actions, but I knew that it came from a place of love. That's why it meant so much to me.

Have you ever heard the story of the Chofetz Chaim's reaction to hearing that his student smoked in public on shabbos? I just googled and found it written in a most eloquent manner. I hope this isn't too long.

Quote:

Over four decades later, on the occasion of the Chofetz Chaim's yahrtzeit (anniversary of his passing), a rabbi visiting Miami, Florida gave a lecture on the life and accomplishments of the Chofetz Chaim. He mentioned the many books that the Chofetz Chaim had authored, and he told numerous stories which depicted the Chofetz Chaim's deep love and concern for others. There was one story the rabbi wanted to tell, but he hesitated, for he only knew part of it. As he stood at the lectern, he thought for a moment and then decided that he would tell it anyway. He rationalized that even an unfinished story about the Chofetz Chaim would have a meaningful message.

He began to relate an incident about a teenage boy in the Chofetz Chaim's yeshiva who was found smoking a cigarette on Shabbos. The faculty and students were shocked, and some of the faculty felt that the boy should be expelled. When the Chofetz Chaim, however, heard the story, he asked that the boy be brought to his home.

At this point, the rabbi recounting the story interrupted the narrative and said, "I don't know what the Chofetz Chaim said to the boy. I only know that they were together for a few minutes; yet, I would give anything to know what he said to this student, for I am told that the boy never desecrated the Shabbos again. How wonderful it would be if we could relay that message - whatever it was - to others, in order to encourage them in their observance of Shabbos. The rabbi then continued with his lecture.

After his talk, the hall emptied of everyone except for one elderly man, who remained in his seat, alone with his thoughts. From the distance, it seemed he was trembling, as if he was either crying or suffering from chills. The rabbi walked over to the elderly man and asked him, "Is anything wrong?"
The man responded, "How did you know that story of the cigarette on Shabbos?" He did not look up and was still shaken. "I really don't know", answered the rabbi. "I heard it a while ago and I don't even remember who told it to me." The man looked up at the rabbi and said softly, "I was that boy." He then asked the rabbi to go outside, and as the two walked together, he told the rabbi the following story:

"This incident occurred in the 1920's when the Chofetz Chaim was in his eighties. I was terrified to have to go into his house and face him. But when I did go into his home, I looked around with disbelief at the poverty in which he lived. It was unimaginable to me that a man of his stature would be satisfied to live in such surroundings. Suddenly he was in the room where I was waiting. He was remarkably short. At that time I was a teenager and he only came up to my shoulders. He took my hand and clasped it tenderly in both of his. He brought my hand in his own clasped hands up to his face, and when I looked into his soft face, his eyes were closed for a moment. When he opened them, they were filled with tears. He then said to me in a hushed voice full of pain and astonishment, 'Shabbos!' And he started to cry. He was still holding both my hands in his, and while he was crying he repeated with astonishment, 'Shabbos, heliger Shabbos!' My heart started pounding and I became more frightened than I had been before. Tears streamed down his face and one of them rolled onto my hand. I thought it would bore a hole right through my skin. When I think of those tears today, I can still feel their heat. I can't describe how awful it felt to know that I had made the great tzadik cry. But in his rebuke - which consisted only of those few words - I felt that he was not angry, but rather sad and disappointed with me. He seemed frightened at the consequences of my actions."

The elderly man then caressed the hand that bore the invisible scar of a precious tear. It had become his permanent reminder to observe the "heliger Shabbos" for the rest of his life.

Seas

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 8:06 pm

amother wrote:

You pose a difficult question, one that arises any time a policy is moved from the abstract to the individual. Let me ask you a different question to illustrate:

Imagine someone who's committed a crime we'll all agree is abhorrent and deserving of a lengthy jail sentence - perhaps rape or child molestation. Now this man, instead of being brought to justice, happened to be surrounded by 'do-gooders' who hid him away and made sure he gets the help needed to rehabilitate (they also provided therapy and support for the victim).

It's now 20 years later and you're at someone's home pontificating about rapists and how they should be jailed for life, when the man of the house interrupts, "20 years ago I raped someone. It's only due to the acceptance and love of my friends and family that I was able to completely rehabilitate, and I've actually set up a help-center for rape victims. Also, I managed to raise a beautiful family of G-d fearing children. My victim was also helped and she has bh moved on to raise a lovely family of her own, and she's strong enough that 7 years ago we met and she forgave me completely.

"Would you have rather I'd have wasted my life in jail and not been able to help all those people?"

The answer to that of course is no, obviously the current results are better than had he been in jail. But crucially, neither should this anecdote change our policy on rapists!

So to answer your question, I'm ecstatic that you've done tshuva and are now keeping Shabbos, I really am. Still, at the time when you weren't, you were acting out of your own free will, and as we all know actions have consequences. If one of these consequences is becoming shunned by frum people, unfortunately so be it.

This is especially true when it comes to you and me, since I have no obligation to befriend you (or continue to do so). It's much more complicated when someone's child ch"v goes OTD, and I daven to Hashem I should never ever be put in this position where one of my descendants is mechallel Shabbos (there is such a case in my immediate family and all I can say is the parents are going through hell on earth). Therefore, I will not comment on such a situation.

Last edited by Seas on Tue, Apr 19 2016, 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

singleagain

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 8:19 pm

Seas wrote:

You pose a difficult question, one that arises any time a policy is moved from the abstract to the individual. Let me ask you a different question to illustrate:

Imagine someone who's committed a crime we'll all agree is abhorrent and deserving of a lengthy jail sentence - perhaps rape or child molestation. Now this man, instead of being brought to justice, happened to be surrounded by 'do-gooders' who hid him away and made sure he gets the help needed to rehabilitate (they also provided therapy and support for the victim).

It's now 20 years later and you're at someone's home pontificating about rapists and how they should be jailed for life, when the man of the house interrupts, "20 years ago I raped someone. It's only due to the acceptance and love of my friends and family that I was able to completely rehabilitate, and I've actually set up a help-center for rape victims. Also, I managed to raise a beautiful family of G-d fearing children. My victim was also helped and she has bh moved on to raise a lovely family of her own, and she's strong enough that 7 years ago we met and she forgave me completely.

"Would you have rather I'd have wasted my life in jail and not been able to help all those people?"

The answer to that of course is no, of course the current results are better than had he been in jail. But crucially, neither should this anecdote change our policy on rapists!

So to answer your question, I'm ecstatic that you've done tshuva and are now keeping Shabbos, I really am. Still, at the time when you weren't, you were acting out of your own free will, and as we all know actions have consequences. If one of these consequences is becoming shunned by frum people, unfortunately so be it.

This is especially true when it comes to you and me, since I have no obligation to befriend you (or continue to do so). It's much more complicated when someone's child ch"v goes OTD, and I daven to Hashem I should never ever be put in this position where one of my descendants is mechallel Shabbos (there is such a case in my immediate family and all I can say is the parent's are going through hell on earth). Therefore, I will not comment on such a situation.

are you srsly, comparing rape to being mechalal shabbat???? I don't even... how is that comparable???? rape hurts everyone involved, the victim, friends and family of the victim etc. breaking shabbat is between that person and god... and last I checked, the relationship between one man and god is not for other persons to dwell on...

Seas

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 8:23 pm

singleagain wrote:

No, I'm illustrating how personal anecdotes cannot change our general policy.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 8:23 pm

greenfire wrote:

I have long suspected the second.

The uber-rational approach to every discussion, especially the emotional ones, the utter lack of compassion, outright support of get deniers... it's all adding up.

singleagain

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 8:26 pm

Seas wrote:

No, I'm illustrating how personal anecdotes cannot change our general policy.

sorry, I have to disagree with you... personality should drive policy. perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be a parent with two children who both break the same rule. do both children get the same consequence... NO, why? bc the children are different ppl and respond to different consequences.

you cannot make one policy that fits everyone. and that is what I see from your posts, that you are trying to assert that one policy fits all situations and it doesn't.

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 8:36 pm

Seas wrote:

No, I'm illustrating how personal anecdotes cannot change our general policy.

That is a horrible example. As a mechalel shabbos, I was NOT a danger to anyone (other than my spiritual self). A rapist is a threat to society. How can you compare the two?
Try Kashrus or tsnius as a better comparison. Rolling Eyes

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 8:39 pm

And you mentioned that there is a case of someone being mechalel shabbos in your immediate family. How may I ask are you treating said person?
Also, you mentioned that you would have no obligation to befriend me. That's not true. "Veohavta lereiacha komocha."

Seas

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 8:52 pm

amother wrote:

I'm purposefully being very vague as I value my privacy, hence I don't wish to discuss this case further. As to veohavta leraiacha komocha, that doesn't apply to a mechallel Shabbos befarhesia (in public), who loses much of his/her status as a Jew.

As to the analogy, I could argue that it is a good one, but that was anyway just an analogy. The point I was making is that (to put it bluntly) the consequences of someone's actions are on her own head.

singleagain

Tue, Apr 19 2016, 8:55 pm

Seas wrote:

the words are וְאָהַבְתָּ לְרֵעֲךָ כָּמוֹךָ v'ahavtah l'reiacha camocha, --- I was unaware that reiacha meant a Jew.... as far as I've always heard it translates to neighbor, which in my dictionary, is someone who lives next to me.