Chag HaAtzmaut Sameach

Marion

Thu, May 12 2016, 2:45 pm

amother wrote:

wtvr u say! but don't agree and don't think u have all the facts right!

What facts do I have wrong? Other than the Neturei Karta/Satmar (AFAIK Neturei Karta ARE Satmar), is there another group that explicitly says there can be no independent state until mashiach arrives? I am aware of several groups who don't like that the State of Israel is not a halachically Jewish state, but I do not know of any others who hold like the Neturei Karta/Satmar.

Chayalle

Thu, May 12 2016, 2:50 pm

Marion wrote:

Yes there certainly are other groups that say that "Lo Yaalu B'Choma" was violated by the founding of the state. However now that the state was founded, there are groups like Satmar/Neturei Karta that continue to refrain from accepting/interacting with the state, and groups like Agudah (and many other Chareidi parties) who do participate in the state, though they did not necessarily celebrate it's founding.

It's been a long, long time since, but I studied some of this in seminary about 20 years ago. There's a writing called Hishtatfut Bamemshalah by R' Reuvein Grozovsky that discusses this.

ally

Thu, May 12 2016, 2:58 pm

boysmom4 wrote:

can you explain to me why if we won the war and now we have an independant state why does that
equal up to saying Hallel?
Hallel said on each yom tov was decided about 2000 years ago by the Anshei Knesset Hagdola! Who decided that its normal to say Hallel and with a Bracha!! what a Bracha Levatala!!
Any explanations Please??

From what I recall, there is a long tradition of individual communities saying hallel for their communal miracles ( saved from crusaders/Cossacks etc...) called a פורים קטן.
No one just decided anything is "normal". There is lengthy halachic analysis of the rational for saying/not saying hallel. You don't have to agree with it but it exists.

Chayalle

Thu, May 12 2016, 3:08 pm

boysmom4 wrote:

Many people (including Rabannim) believed that the winning of the War of Independance was "Aschalta D'geulah" - the beginning of the final geulah. That is why they began to say Hallel on this day.

IIRC even the Brisker Rav saw "a Divine Smile" in the founding of the State (though he did not equate that to saying Halllel).

Iymnok

Thu, May 12 2016, 3:15 pm

But briskers do not accept anything from the government. They don't vote, pay for private healthcare etc. the old school ones may even use a generator to avoid the electric company.

amother

Blue

Thu, May 12 2016, 3:18 pm

Chayalle wrote:

which rabanim believed that winning the war was the beginning of the geulah? interstingly enough no one told me that the guala was here....and I though the when moshiach will come will have a bais hamikdash o well! mayb I don't know.....

Chayalle

Thu, May 12 2016, 3:28 pm

amother wrote:

Many that are/were affiliated with the Mizrachi movement. No, they did not believe the Geulah was here. They believed the BEGINNING of the Geulah was here - as in stage 1....

Learn some Hebrew, and some History.

Chayalle

Thu, May 12 2016, 3:31 pm

Iymnok wrote:

But briskers do not accept anything from the government. They don't vote, pay for private healthcare etc. the old school ones may even use a generator to avoid the electric company.

Someone once suggested a guy to one of my sisters whom we heard does not use Shekels when he is in Israel, and protested against Pononvezh for flying the Israeli flag on Yom HaAtzmaut.

(she declined to date him)

True about Briskers, and also true about the Brisker Rav.

Chayalle

Thu, May 12 2016, 3:51 pm

Marion wrote:

I hope this is a big enough rav for you...

Rav Avraham Yitzchak haCohen Kook

His Ahavat Yisrael was certainly big enough....

big enough for me. I might not follow his shitah, but I certainly respect the greatness of who he was.

Karnash

Thu, May 12 2016, 3:58 pm

Chayalle wrote:
I don't call anything that isn't called a Chag in the Torah, a chag.

I guess then, that you don't call Chanuka and Purim "chag" - they are not mentioned in the Torah.

The establishment of the State of Israel is a נס, perhaps even a נס גלוי. Never in the history of mankind has a people who have been scattered to the four corners of the earth, for 2000 years, returned to their homeland. The land of Israel existed after the churban, but עם ישראל did not come back in any significant numbers until the State was created. Latest statistics show that half of the world Jewish population now live in Israel. In 1948, the population of Israel was about 850,000. Today it is more than 8,300,000.
If that is not a miracle, what is?

5mom

Thu, May 12 2016, 4:14 pm

amother wrote:

Why is the mikdash the only mark of success? The Jews lived in Israel for some 400 years before building the first Bais Hamikdash. In the meantime, should they have refused to thank Hashem for bringing them to the land?

Bayis Sheini was built by humans, after negotiating with the superpower of the age. Like the first, it didn't come down whole from Shamayim.

Of course we hope to get to that stage of having a Mikdash. But in the meantime, we have so many things for which to give thanks. We have sovereignty over our own land, Jews have come from four corners of the earth, the land is fruitful, children and old people fill the streets of Jerusalem, brides and grooms celebrate in the towns of Yehuda and the courtyards of Jerusalem..... You get the idea.

Maya

Thu, May 12 2016, 4:33 pm

Iymnok wrote:

But briskers do not accept anything from the government. They don't vote, pay for private healthcare etc. the old school ones may even use a generator to avoid the electric company.

So why live there?

Maya

Thu, May 12 2016, 4:35 pm

Marion wrote:

I hope this is a big enough rav for you...

Rav Avraham Yitzchak haCohen Kook

If this poster is Satmar, not only is he not big enough for her, but she knows him better as Rav Kook yemach shmo.

besty

Thu, May 12 2016, 4:37 pm

Maya wrote:

If this poster is Satmar, not only is he not big enough for her, but she knows him better as Rav Kook yemach shmo.

cudnt resist replying!!! u sound like a ex ultra satmar!!!! lol!!!

Maya

Thu, May 12 2016, 4:41 pm

besty wrote:

cudnt resist replying!!! u sound like a ex ultra satmar!!!! lol!!!

Yeah lol!!!!! So hysterically funny!!!!!!

Last edited by Maya on Thu, May 12 2016, 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Thu, May 12 2016, 4:56 pm

Karnash wrote:

Correct, I don't call Chanukah and Purim a "chag".

Purim is Yemei Mishteh V'Simcha. Even the Megillah does not call it a Chag.

And Chanukah is established L'Hodos U'LeHalel. But it is not a Chag.

Agree with you that the establishment of the State of Israel is a Nes. That does not make Yom HaAtzmaut a Chag.