Really resent bug checking

rachel6543

Tue, Jul 12 2016, 9:00 pm

When I don't feel like checking much, I just stick to veggies/fruits that require minimal or (usually) less checking: carrots, bell peppers, avocado, potatoes, snap peas, beets, tomatoes, cucumbers, eggplant, onions, squash, sweet potato.... Etc. Also, I find in my area the romaine hearts and pre washed spinach usually have minimal bug issues.

PinkFridge

Tue, Jul 12 2016, 9:46 pm

Maya wrote:

Well said.

There's such hypocrisy in that statement.
When we want to prove how being "frummer" is mandatory, we'll bring as many stories as we can about our previous generations, but when it doesn't jibe with our new chumrahs, suddenly our ancestors don't matter.

If my mother had a good way to wash and check strawberries twenty years ago, it's good enough for me right now, even if people don't eat strawberries anymore and they can't be found in the local supermarkets.

If you have a mesorah, kol hakavod. But not everyone was aware of issues, OR because of pesticides, etc. some things weren't issues then, OR there are legitimate different opinions of what and how to check and OP's changed minhagim.

5mom

Tue, Jul 12 2016, 11:29 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

No one was using pesticides in Eastern Europe two hundred years ago. But everyone ate cabbage.

amother

Apricot

Tue, Jul 12 2016, 11:40 pm

Please correct me if Im not totally accurate, but I think I remember Rabbi Blumenkrantz a"h talking about bug checking on a Pesach program, and he said whatever bug-checking a woman does at home, is way more reliably bug-free than the packaged salads.

With packaged salads, if in a shipment of many cartons of vegetables, the one carton thats chosen to be checked as representative of the whole shipment is found to be bug-free, the whole shipment, many cases are considered good, without even having been looked at. They get a heter for commercial purposes.

5mom

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 12:06 am

The Happy Wife wrote:

You can't just do what was done in the past if the present situation is not the same.

First, there's no reason to assume that produce is more infested than it used to be. It's just easier to see smaller bugs. Commercial growers rotate pesticides to reduce the possibility of adaptation. Even if they didn't, there would not be new bugs, just more of the same ones .

Second, I totally agree that halacha must reflect current reality. Only that rule should be applied le-kula as well as l'chumra. So for example, if you think that there really are more bugs in vegetables because of pesticide resistance, then surely you have noticed that flour is far less likely to be infested with bugs because of better storage methods. Can women in Israel stop sifting flour?

amother

Blush

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 7:07 am

Whatever the "different reality", it certainly wasn't less buggy back in the day! There were no pesticides, so it was, if anything, more buggy. What does make a difference is that if it didn't exist locally, it didn't exist, so since most of our bubbies probably weren't eating kale, we wouldn't have a mesorah for checking kale and today's rabbis had to come up with guidelines for that.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 8:58 am

5mom wrote:

No one was using pesticides in Eastern Europe two hundred years ago. But everyone ate cabbage.

Do you have any reason to believe they weren't rinsing well first? Checking, doing something, even if we don't know what?

FranticFrummie

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 9:13 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Do you have any reason to believe they weren't rinsing well first? Checking, doing something, even if we don't know what?

200 years ago, the soil wasn't depleted of nutrients, and mono farming wasn't as much of a thing. People rotated crops, too. This all contributed to making the veggies stronger and more insect and disease resistant. Heirloom varieties were stronger than today's hybrids, as well.

In other words, in the name of cheaper and easier to get produce year round, we've created our own bug problem.

I eat the "forbidden fruits and veggies", but I take the time to cut them into small pieces, and check them in bright daylight. I'll eat cauliflower and broccoli, but I make sure not to check them at night with just the overhead light, when I'm too tired to do a good job. Same thing with lettuce.

I absolutely do NOT trust bodek, because they only have to check a small portion of each lot. I know that I do a much better job than an overworked, under paid factory worker.

5mom

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 9:27 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Do you have any reason to believe they weren't rinsing well first? Checking, doing something, even if we don't know what?

I'm sure they rinsed vegetables. I'm also sure they didn't hold them up to the light, or outsource kashrus. Really, I spent time in the kitchen with my frum grandmothers who grew up and ran kosher kitchens in Eastern Europe.

Mrs Bissli

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 9:50 am

If anything, theoretically fruits and veggies in our days should be less bug infested than previous centuries. Pesticides have become pretty effective (the resistance I'm hearing more tends to be on herbicides), whilst more farmers are using pest-resistant breeds of seeds and most contemporary fertilisers include micronutrients. I'm not aware monoculture affects bug infestation, the main issue is yields. We now have refrigerated or other controlled food distribution chains (which slows bugs growth/infection) though I admit this can be offset by longer food mileages.

On the other side, we probably 'feel' there are more bugs because in general we have better lighting at home and cleaner/easier-to-reflect kitchen surfaces and our kashrut authorities have access to microscopes. Also I suspect more Jews (% wise) live in Israel with warmer/bug-friendly climate.

Amarante

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 10:28 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Do you have any reason to believe they weren't rinsing well first? Checking, doing something, even if we don't know what?

FWIW because it really doesn't control what one feels necessary, my frum kosher Bubbe from Poland did not obsessively check for microscopic bugs in produce but washed them well and that was that.

There would have been many more bugs in the old Country because there were no pesticides. As a child, we had produce from a farm in the summer and we wood find works in corn and apples. I can't remember if peaches had worms. But my Bubbe did not go looking for bugs that weren't apparent to her naked eyes under normal light. And the fluorescent light in her US kitchen was no doubt better than whatever bulb she had in Poland.

Today's standards for a lot of stuff would have been almost impossible in terms of a kosher kitchen pre WW II as the amount of extra work would have been prohibitive. This was a time before washer/driers, refrigerators and almost any kind of pre made food was not available for most people.

Shuly

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 10:41 am

5mom wrote:

Second, I totally agree that halacha must reflect current reality. Only that rule should be applied le-kula as well as l'chumra. So for example, if you think that there really are more bugs in vegetables because of pesticide resistance, then surely you have noticed that flour is far less likely to be infested with bugs because of better storage methods. Can women in Israel stop sifting flour?

All flour in Israel is imported because Israeli wheat doesn't produce good flour for baking. Since it is imported, it is in storage for much longer, so it has to be sifted.
In other countries, the flour is not stored for long before you get it and it does not have to be checked.
A number of my friends have found tiny worms that looks like small grains of brown rice when they sifted their flour in Israel.

5mom

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 12:11 pm

Shuly wrote:

Most American wheat and flour sits for months if not years in warehouses. Some claim that European flour has a higher fat content, which attracts worms, but that doesn't seem to be problematic in Europe. Also, for the most part, it's wheat that's imported. It's ground into flour here, meaning that it doesn't sit in warehouses for too long.

nylon

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 12:42 pm

Heirloom varieties are not always more resistant to pests. One of the reasons for the development of new varieties wasn't just shipping--it's pest resistance. Depends on the crop.

Mrs Bissli

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 1:01 pm

Talk about mesora, one of traditional Sephardi recipes is stuffed whole artichoke, the other traditional Italki (Roman) recipe is fried whole baby artichoke. And I can buy a jar of whole green asparagus spears (I think it's either in water or brine) with proper hechsher from France. Not advocating anything, just saying what I've been thinking as curious.

amother

Slategray

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 1:09 pm

Sometimes it seems that these 'rules' are made to promote frum companies. I recently bought 4 heads of cauliflower and didn't find a single bug. I even asked DH to check the water as well to make sure I wasn't missing anything. In the past, I have found in the past, so I know what I'm looking for, but I didn't see a single thing that looked like it had ever been alive. Even when I have found, it hasn't been much, so I just washed again and all was good.

Then I wonder, what is this infestation that we are all busy with? Just so Bodek, and Golden Flow and Pardes and all the other brands can make money because the general public won't eat regular cauliflower?

Same with romaine hearts. Every once in a while I'll get a bad bag, but over-all, fresh lettuce is generally clean after a quick rinse, soak, and check.

I understand that it is a convenience to purchase pre-checked veges, and I do that occasionally, but in many communities - fresh produce from these varieties is straight out assur...

Jeanette

Wed, Jul 13 2016, 1:31 pm

There seems to be a race to the bottom among hasgachos to prove they're stricter and better. If hechsher A forbids fresh strawberries and hechsher B allows them, then hechsher B looks substandard.