SPINOFF: poor middle class and moving to ISRAEL!? slash vent

water_bear88

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 2:22 pm

Getting work as a lawyer is very tough. I know several people who studied law and ended up going into other fields because the job market is so tight. I don't personally know any paralegals. PT is probably more easily transferable.

If your Hebrew is decent, check out Yad2.co.il for a idea of real estate prices in a various yishuvim and cities. Nobody I know under 35 is even thinking of buying a house. Those with good savings and/or a lot of family help are buying apartments of under 100 square meters.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 2:41 pm

water_bear88 wrote:

I dont have to be a paralegal, ideally I would like to find an office job and do wigs as a side like I do here.

I would probably rent for a year or 2 to get a feel of where I would like to live permanently and then buy a house

thanks for that website suggestion I will look into it!

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 2:44 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

raanana is extremely expensive. I would assume houses are not going to be cheaper than 3 million shekels.
Beit shemesh, if you are talking about where the anglos mostly live, I am not sure if there are apartments in those areas. That area also will beezpensive, possibly a bit cheaper than raanana, but not a lot.
And the Gush (I live there, if you want to ask anything) is also expensive. Houses that are for sale in my yishuv are going for 2.5 - 3 million shekels.

3 million is around 750k$ to 800k right?

where I live now you can get an attached house with no backyard no front yard for that.

I dont think that is too crazy for a home, in comparison to NY. that seems pretty decent for a home.

my seminary teachers all live in the gush, its so beautiful there!!!! you get so much for the dollar in my opinion. I wish it was more peaceful there.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 2:45 pm

amother wrote:

Every day normal mundane living is very peaceful here Smile

just saying.

Tablepoetry

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 3:07 pm

A few points.
I think imamother for some reason tends to skew toward the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum in Israel. I don't know why.
Actually most people I know in Israel own homes (by home I mean also apartments of course). I believe the research backs this up. I assume the majority had help from their parents - but op also seems to have some sort of help.
Salaries are much lower but it's still pretty common to earn 10 or 15 K. Even a teacher with a decade's experience earns about 10k these days (for a full time job, which is 40 hours/wk after the latest reforms).
Housing costs vary widely depending where you live. Ra'anana, which you mentioned, is really one of the most expensive areas. Peeking at yad 2 I see that you can buy a 4-6 room flat there for 2.1- 3 M shekels. (When they say number of rooms, they include living rm).
Of course for that price there are many cities and yeshuvim where you can buy a proper detached house (and I don't mean in the gush).

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 3:11 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

thank you for the info. Renana was only a slight option- I actually have never even been there but I heard its more american so I thought it would be a good option.

I dont think 7-800k is terrible for a home, coming from NY. Smile

amother

Indigo

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 4:55 pm

a 4_6 room home for 2-3 milion shekel. Thats a small 3 bedroom apartment. Either you missed that op or you really want to move.

What are the other reasons you want to move? NY is boring? You sound stressed and terrified of being poor in a place like New York where having lots of money is very important to you. It sounds like you have lots of good memories from seminary. That is not a reason to move. From your jobs it doesn't sound like you'll be doing a whole lot better living in israel. Perhaps start looking into a degree for yourself? something that can give you menuchas hanefesh that your working towards getting out of the middle class rut.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 5:26 pm

amother wrote:

Sorry but what you described is exactly the opposite... I'm not stressed or terrified. I just know what is coming and I'm exploring my options and Israel sounds like a great one. Get a degree? I know lawyers and doctors who are struggling in NY. I'm not into the "rich" lifestyle but you can't hide away from it. Why am I even trying to prove myself. This is pathetic. And one of the posters said she lived in the gush and paid under 3m. I've seen the houses there and they are stunning. And I don't mind living in an apartment either way. If cost of an apartment or home is the biggest issue than that BH is not my issue. And yes NY is very very boring to me, I want a change. Thank you for your input though but it was actually the opposite of how I feel.

bluebird

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 5:50 pm

amother wrote:

I dont think 7-800k is terrible for a home, coming from NY. Smile

On the surface, maybe not, but the important thing in really home price relative to yoir income.

Glassdoor gives the average salary of a PT in Israel as 16,000 NIS per month which is 192, 000 NIS. A 3.0 mil nis home is 15.63 times that salary.

Glassdoor gives the average salary of a PT in NYC as $65,280. The same house would cost $785947.47 in the US, 12.04 times the US. So, the house is more expensive in Israel just to purchase and that's without taking into account differences in property taxes or interest rates.

Just food for thought.

tryinghard

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 5:52 pm

amother wrote:

Just curious, what do you find boring?

Marion

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 9:43 pm

amother wrote:

I grew up here. Let me give you actual numbers

My mom makes between 15-30,000 NIS a month, which is AMAZING but then pays 40% tax!!!! And she has 6 kids at home ( a man would pay a higher percentage)

Tuitions are a LOT cheaper but its still money. For 6 kids it comes out to 5,000 NIS.
That leaves 5,000-7,000 NIS a month from her salary.
My dad makes about 3,500 NIS (after tax).
The mortgage is 4,200 NIS(before arnona)
Maintaing a car cost 1,000 NIS a month (crucial for my moms job)

That leaves 6,300 on a good month for someone with a high paying job.

We are newlywed. My DH is learning - he brings in 2,500 NIS from kollel (tax exempt).
I make 1,000$. We only need to pay bituach leumi which is 10% of my salary.
Our rent is 3,400.

So when you are young/small family life seems a lot cheaper. But as soon as you have more kids and are making more money it's not necessarily easier.

BUT AGAIN. If you want to move here for idealistic reasons and are trying to swing it financially I don't think it is much harder here then in the states- only the standards are much lower.

A LOT depends on where you live, ages of your kids (I know you said you don't have any yet), lifestyle, expectations, and yes, where you're holding religiously. Using the examples from the post above:

Tuition:
Public religious elementary school - no tuition but about 1,00NIS/child/year in parent payments (field trips & cultural events, school books & supplies, uniform shirts, PTA/class funds) (Daycare will vary by private/public and whether or not you're eligible for a subsidy, and Yeshiva highschool in the DL world can hit 10K/year...maybe someone else can chime in with the prices in charedi Talmud Torahs and yeshiva ketana.)
My mortgage is under 2K/month (4 bedroom, garden apartment)
My utilities (water, electric, cooking fuel, internet, cell phones, landline, long distance) come out to about 550NIS/month
Arnona is another 550NIS/month (130 sq.m)
Maintaining and RUNNING a car does not cost 1K/month; just gas can be 1K/month, so figure on 2.5 times that number, factoring in insurance, maintenance repairs and gas. If you have a NEW car and are paying it off, add even more.

I know lots of people who make it on less than 10K COMBINED INCOME/month. 15K would definitely be more comfortable, but it's doable on less.

amother

Lime

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 9:48 pm

Good for you for considering Israel! My friends are two PTs married to each other. They both passed the licensing exam on the first try (yes.... Any oleh pt has to take it) and got jobs filling in for maternity leaves which led to experience and full-time opportunities.

I am sorry I started the whole housing thing but it is frustrating to me that I need to put down %20-25 to get anything so even though I have six figures in savings I still can't get more than a 2-3 bedroom apartment in the area I want. If I wanted the shomron or galil I could get a beautiful private home with that money.

As long as you go into it being realistic and motivated living in Israel can be wonderful. I also just want to mention that nbn does not always have all of the answers especially in specific professional questions.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 10:16 pm

Let me just preface this with the fact that it's not cheap to live here. Where it's cheaper In some areas, it's more expensive in other areas.

Housing - you need to put down 30 % when you purchase.
I just bought a TINY three bedroom in bet shemesh, top floor apartment for 1.36 million shekel. We needed to put down $108,000 and our mortgage will be 4200 shekel!
It's insane.
Arnona is over 750 shekel for two months where I'm living (haven't moved yet) and this is NOT included in your rent.
Appliances - you need to take out a mortgage to pay for these. It's expensive. And if you buy cheap, you need to buy new or pay for repairs within two years.
Furniture - so many people are not very smart and do not bring in beds and couches and will spend almost $2,000 on a bed that would have cost them $500 or $3,000 on a couch that they could have bought for half of that in America.
If you would want anything of quality here, then --- never mind. You can't really buy anything very well made here unless it's from someone who brought it in and is selling second hand.

Income - my husband works in tel aviv in a massive company and nets under 10k a month. It's unrealistic to say that people make 15-30k here per month. Yes, I'm sure some people do. I don't know those people.

Let's not forget travel costs if you travel to your job and you're coming home with about 9 which has to cover rent, tax, tuition, utilities, insurance, vaad bayit, food and more. You're left with nothing and if you're not smart about it, you're left with no money for food.

It's a massive transition. It's not easy on anybody. And don't fool yourself into thinking it will be better than now because it's "eretz yisrael" (insert sarcasm here)

Almost everyone I know here lives in the minus (overdraft) and lives on tashlumim (payments) -- and this is with two incomes!!

Most of my friends don't own homes here - maybe all, unless they made Aliyah and sold a house, or their parents bought them one.

Life is not easy here, and the only reason it's acceptable to be poor here, is because everyone else is in the same boat.

But it's hard.
I would think about it a lot more and maybe see why I really wanted to make this huge change in my life aside for the reasons you gave of being bored and not wanting to be middle class/poor.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Karnash

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 10:37 pm

I don't usually chime in on these discussions, but I will here. I agree with Tablepoetry. For some reason Imamother is Israel is skewed to lower earning families. DH and I are currently retired but have lived most of our married life here. We've raised and married off 5 children b"H and helped them all buy apts. We were both salaried, DH in hi-tech,and I was a teacher.
True, we bought our first apt. when housing was cheap and built up from there - but I look at my kids friends - they are all earning well or on the way to earning well - definitely not living on overdraft. You can live frugally and decently here, as Marion says even on a combined income of 12-15,000.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 10:39 pm

5mom wrote:

We're going to be reading Devarim this shabbos, in which Moshe Rabbenu reminds the Jews of chet hameraglim. Maybe we should stop talking about how hard it is to live in Israel and stop for a minute to be thankful. As the op reminds us, life can be hard anywhere. At least we're living it in Israel.

But let's not fool anyone into thinking for one second that it's gonna be easier and she should come all the way here to leave within 6 months.

moonstone

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 10:41 pm

amother wrote:

I feel like the standard of living is a lot easier also, correct me if im wrong. there isnt as much competition (I dont feel that now, but I probably will when I have kids whos friends have the cool shoes and the cool clothes and the newest ipads and iphones etc.)

from what I see from my cousins, there isnt much "branding" or having to always compete with your neighbor. many live in apartments etc.

I am not spoiled and I do not expect much, but I do want to enjoy life without worrying about whether I can spend $20 on a shirt and I dont want to constantly be budgeting my whole life.

side note:

I am not considering moving just because of financials, although that IS a major one. I think my kids would grow up there happier, it just seems so fun there, I know a lot of people say "I would neverrrrrrrr raise my children in israel, the mentality is sooo off"-which I still dont udnerstand. I just think overall I would be happier, and I am pretty bored of NY already.

What do you mean, it seems fun here? Life is life, wherever you are. Its going to work everyday, shopping for food, taking the kids to school, etc. with hopefully some occasional fun thrown in. You talk a lot about being bored in NY - what exactly is so boring to you there, and what makes you think you won't be just as bored here in Israel, where salaries are lower and most things are more expensive? Will you be able to afford trips back to the US when things get too boring here? I would visit a few times before making such a drastic decision such as Aliyah. It doesn't seem like you have a realistic view of life here.

DrMom

Thu, Aug 11 2016, 11:33 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

This.