Do people really tip at camp?!

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mha3484

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 11:45 am

I live in Chicago and have sent to two back yard camps and one large daycamp and no mention of tipping at all. I believe the sleepaway camps do have tipping but I am not that stage yet. My son had four mature morah's for his group that was at different points 14-20 boys. No teenagers.

The older groups have a mix of rebbeim and teenage counselors in each group. I am going to put this down as an east coast thing at least for daycamp.

Chayalle

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 11:52 am

I think it's important to know the costs of a place, and figure that into your budget, before you sign up for it - including tips. If you eat out at a restaurant, you know that the waitress tip is part of the cost of your meal. If you don't want to tip, go to a family-style pizza shop for dinner.

If you send to a camp that has tipping, it's part of the cost of your camp. Don't send there if you don't plan on tipping.

In Lakewood, the daycamps don't have tipping as part of the camp policy, so tipping is optional. However in sleepaway camp, I wouldn't dream of not giving the counselors their expected tip. It's not like a surprise cost that pops up at the end - it's in the camp handbook.

amother

Lavender

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 11:53 am

amother wrote:

Im shocked there's a person who claims to have never even heard of the concept of tipping counselors. Where did you grow up??? What area of the world do you live in???

I have never heard of this concept either. I get the concept of appreciation, such as a card, box of chocolates, a gift card to their favorite store or amazon, but to actually tip with money, it would honestly never cross my mind. If anything, I would be afraid to offend a camp counselors with the tip. But that's my mentality, I grew up in Europe, and moved to USA when I was relatively mature. None of our camps mentioned anything about tips btw.

singleagain

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 12:05 pm

for everyone who is appalled at the concept of tips, are you also appalled at the idea of buying chanukka presents and mishloach manot for therapists and house cleaners?

what's the difference there?

mummiedearest

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 12:17 pm

singleagain wrote:

for everyone who is appalled at the concept of tips, are you also appalled at the idea of buying chanukka presents and mishloach manot for therapists and house cleaners?

what's the difference there?

I don't do chanuka gifts and mishloach manos for therapists. it's a nice thought, but it is certainly not an obligation. as for house cleaners, when I had one I was happy with for a long time, I gave her a raise. (yes, I know, totally ruined it for future customers of hers, right? Rolling Eyes

)

hakaras hatov is saying thank you. you don't need to do it financially if it's beyond your obligations.

singleagain

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 12:20 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

)

hakaras hatov is saying thank you. you don't need to do it financially if it's beyond your obligations.

oh, I totally, agree... I just wanted to give some food for thought, bc I so often see many ppl asking what to tip therapists and house cleaners etc. and then to see them complaining about tipping counselors, I just wonder if ppl are making a distinction.

I also agree, that the ppl being paid to watch our children are often underappreciated in camps and schools, I just wish there would be a solution that would make everyone happy

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 12:26 pm

singleagain wrote:

for everyone who is appalled at the concept of tips, are you also appalled at the idea of buying chanukka presents and mishloach manot for therapists and house cleaners?

what's the difference there?

Good question.

I think an even better analogy is to tipping the waiter at a restaurant.

"Why should I tip the waiter? The restaurant should pay him a fair wage. My meal was so expensive!"

Well, in the US waiters are legally allowed to be paid bupkes, with the understanding that they will receive tips from the customers.

Someone from another culture, or someone who rarely eats out and is unfamiliar with the nuances, may be caught by surprise.

singleagain

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 12:30 pm

cm wrote:

that is very true, in fact, I've seen a lot of restaurants now have on the bottom of the menu "an 18% surcharge will be added to the bill. 20% for parties more than x" or whatever the numbers are

the major difference with the waiters, is I think that unless they acted really rudely, most ppl will tip based on the meal itself.. and how is that fair to a waiter who does everything right.

then, of course, that goes off into a whole debate about "community tips" like with a tip jar, vs individual tips

livinginflatbus

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 1:05 pm

I hear both sides here. When I was a counsler I really appreciated my tips to supplement my paltry salary. Now that I'm a parent and paying for my kids camp I see how much it adds up to. I give tips though because I feel I must and I do appreciate the counselers hard work...

sky

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 1:29 pm

singleagain wrote:

If there is a 18% mandatory tip (as most Jewish places have) there is no incentive to be attentive or do an extra good job. The tip is guaranteed.

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 1:37 pm

OK, I really didn't mean to turn this into a discussion about restaurant tipping.

My point is that if you tip waiters - and most of us in the US do - keep in mind that camp counselors are in a very similar situation.

It is not unusual for restaurants to add the tip for you if the bill is high or your party is very large, as the customer may feel as camp parents do: "The bill is so high - I don't want to give a tip also!" At least at camp you have a choice.

Moral of the story: find out in advance what the camp policy is. If tips are allowed/encouraged, participate within your budget.

Simple1

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 1:42 pm

In Lakewood I never got tipping sheets from camps.

I could possibly see tipping making more sense for sleepaway than day camp. In sleepaway, you're getting room, board, meals, special activities etc., in addition to counselors. In day camp, you're just getting day time hours with the counselors, so the camp fee really should make sure to cover that expense (and pay normal salaries). Also, the counselors are going to get free overnight camp with tipping being a bonus.

Chayalle

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 2:37 pm

sky wrote:

If there is a 18% mandatory tip (as most Jewish places have) there is no incentive to be attentive or do an extra good job. The tip is guaranteed.

1000%.

The nail salon we visit in Lakewood now has mandatory $2 tipping for manicures. I'm happy to give it when they do a good job...but there are some that really don't (including the owner, who also insists on her $2 tip.)

But now that I know that it's part of the price, I can choose to go there and pay the price plus tip for a manicure, or I can go elsewhere.

The camps generally do have a range for tipping, so that you can give more or less depending on how good a job you feel they are doing. For my DD's counselors in camp, I liked to include a chocolate bar with my tip. In fact, one year DD, together with a bunch of friends, requested that they get back their favorite counselor from the previous year. The camp honored their request (!) and when I got there on visiting day, she told me she had been looking forward to her chocolate fix for the day!

dina22

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 3:52 pm

amother wrote:

Op here.

I don't understand the comments that if I'm sending to camp, the extra couple hundred is not a big deal.

Camp is a necessity that's worked into our budget. We work, and we have very active kids and it would be very detrimental to have them stifled and not active (physically and in learning) all summer. The extra few hundred dollars, in cash lump payment, seems ridiculous.

And labeling it hakaras hatov is disingenuous. I have hakaras hatov to many people, including bus drivers, sales people, professionals, and sanitation workers, that doesn't mean I go around squandering my hard earned money.

I didn't grow up in NY, but from my understanding the counselors are getting youth core--some kind of payment from the government? That plus the really high camp fees should really cover 8 weeks of employment.

I didn't finish reading the thread because I'm getting so frustrated. When couselors get youthcorp, typically, the camp doesn't pay them. And when they get youthcorp, because of when it starts and stops, they end up working a few weeks for free. And because they get youthcorp, they legally can't work more than x hours a week, but they do and do not get paid for it.
It was so aggravating as a counselor when a parent didn't tip. You are sending ur dc to a really expensive day camp. We are taking care of her all day, and although u think she's the cutest thing, sometimes she's rlly difficult to deal with. Yes, the day camps should pay more, but they don't. So it is a matter of showing ur appreciation and the couselors who worked rlly hard would like it show with a few extra dollars. My parents always tipped, although money was always tight. They made it a priority because it's the right thing to do.

watergirl

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 3:57 pm

amother wrote:

And labeling it hakaras hatov is disingenuous. I have hakaras hatov to many people, including bus drivers, sales people, professionals, and sanitation workers, that doesn't mean I go around squandering my hard earned money.

I didn't grow up in NY, but from my understanding the counselors are getting youth core--some kind of payment from the government? That plus the really high camp fees should really cover 8 weeks of employment.

OK, I have more time now to share my thoughts. Firstly, I totally agree with OP amother. For some reason, some circles do these forced gifts/tips, and the recipient knows that it was forced. OP is totally spot on - its disingenuous. I know that people will insist that they are happy to tip the counselors and rebbes, etc. And thats great for them. But once it becomes forced, its an issue. A tip should be given because we want to give it. No other reason. Not because we are supplementing the income of someone else. Every year during the summer there is a thread about tipping at camp, and every chanukah/purim/pesach there are threads about tipping Rebbes ("how come the rebbe gets more money when the morah works hard also and needs the money also?" EVERY YEAR!).

Where I come from (Chicago), camp cost a lot, and there was no such thing as tipping. Never ever heard of such a thing until I moved to NY. Same goes btw for channukah - some people maybe brought the teachers a gift from Bath and Bodyworks, but MONEY? NEVER! I was appalled when I first heard of that. And I'm a teacher! Every year I was thrilled if someone brought me a mug or a candle because it meant that they choose to think of me. There were no letters home for a class gift. There was no class mother calling and harassing. A gift was given out of the love in someones heart. Plain and simple. The insane Kallah "gifts" comes to mind here as well. How many threads do we see here about a girl who is disappointed because she didnt get what "every other kallah got"? When there is a prescribed list of must haves, it comes from a place of coercion.

Back to camp and tipping.

So I mentioned that I am a teacher. So I worked for 4 summers as a preschool Morah at a very established and well known and popular day camp. All of the head Morahs were married ladies. I was told by the head of the preschool division prior to the first day not to pay too much attention to a certain demographic of campers because "they dont tip so dont bother". WHAT???!!! I was in shock. Firstly, I didnt know anything about tipping. I was getting tips? Hu? Secondly, for this reason I should just not bother with the known non tippers? No way. I gave as much love and care to all of my campers. Come the last week of the 8 week summer, and all of the staff got a stern talking to about tips. We were "reminded" that many grandparents pay for camp, as the parents cant afford it but have to work, so the grandparents pay, and not to expect tips from all of the parents. No opening envelopes until the end of the day, and never to ask for a tip from anyone. All summer I called each parent multiple times to check in and say hi, share a cute moment, share a concern, whatever. Even kids from "that ethnicity" (obviously!). I called campers who were missing, I loved each of them. And I was tipped by every family (and I made sure to tell my director, so she would stop telling people to ignore "those" campers who dont tip!). I got over $1000 in tips each summer. I felt badly that they were forced to tip me. The camp sends out a tip schedule and tells them how much to give each counselor. And I was a parent those years also, so I handed over hundreds of that money to my kids counselors!

So I sat down and wrote a thank you note to each parent, and the other, more seasoned Morahs asked me to stop because thank you notes for forced gifts arent "done". I wrote them anyways. If they have to pay me, at least I can thank them.

But dont call something hakaras hatov if you are forced to give it.

watergirl

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 4:01 pm

dina22 wrote:

Do you have kids? If so, how do you feel when the whole summer your kid complains that his counselor is mean, plays on his phone, ignores them? Did they earn their tip? My son's morah/counselor didnt call once the whole summer. Not a hi or a smile. He lost things at camp (that happens, I know) and again, no phone call.

BTW, I had youth core counselors who did not get paid for a few hours a day and a whole week in the end. But they DID get chessed hours/volunteer hours for that time, which NYC requires anyways, so they didnt come out empty handed.

amother

Lavender

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 4:07 pm

singleagain wrote:

for everyone who is appalled at the concept of tips, are you also appalled at the idea of buying chanukka presents and mishloach manot for therapists and house cleaners?

what's the difference there?

The difference is that chanukka present and mishloach manot is a gift, whereas a tip is more like "here is my thank you for providing good service". I give gifts to therapists not because I am happy with the quality of their work, but because I value the relationship with them (be it professional or personal). By the same token, you would give chanukka present and mishloach manot to your neighbor, but not a tip. A house cleaner I tip if she does a good job, because I want to say thank you for her service, she is a service provider. So in my mind, that's the difference. Gifts are for relationships, tips are for providing service.

amother

Plum

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 4:20 pm

amother wrote:

Im shocked there's a person who claims to have never even heard of the concept of tipping counselors. Where did you grow up??? What area of the world do you live in???

Plus your other snide remark that the user must be from Texas or Nebraska...

I'm not the amother that had never heard of it, however, guess what?! There's a whole world outside of New York City!!

And some of us are on imamother.com! Shock horror!

I'm from the UK and we do not tip counsellors here.

Op I do agree it is strange that you need to supplement these wages and I don't understand why this cost isn't incorporated into the running of the camp.

If I was in your position, I would rather be told camp costs,for example, £200 rather than £150 + £50 tips with a list of tip amounts.

amother

Wine

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 4:30 pm

I have always tipped, even when I did not have it. You can feign ignorance the 1st summer you have a kid in camp, but after that, no dice. You know what to expect, so it's your job to view it as part of the overall cost of sending your kids to camp. You don't like it, speak to the camp. I just don't get this stiffing a teenager. If the counselor was really lousy, then maybe. Otherwise this idea that these kids are working to keep busy etc.... That's absurd. Many counselors I know are saving for seminary. You think it's fun for them to clean up the accidents, wipe noses, put on sunscreen, deal with the cattiness etc..... It all depends on the age, but most of the counselors really do work hard.

Skippy!!

Tue, Aug 23 2016, 4:30 pm

I'm paying full price for day camp. I don't understand why tipping became a mandatory thing. I tip $10 a half per counselor if my child is happy and never complained about the counselor. Bus drivers and bus teachers I stopped tipping. The bus drivers, counselors know what the salary is, if they don't like it they shouldn't take the job. I work and nobody tips me if I do a good job, that's life.

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