Tricking School into Accepting Unvaxxed Kids

jkl

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 1:34 pm

amother wrote:

Before the vaccine, in the 1990's, 100-150 people died every year from chicken pox. Over 10,000 were hospitalized from complications every year.

To reiterate, the cdc estimates that the chickenpox vaccine has saved 100-150 lives every year since the vaccine was instituted in 1995.

Are all of these lives not worth saving??

The other upside to the vaccine, is it provides immunity against shingles, which is a severely painful and potentially debilitating disease.

Anyone who has had chickenpox itself, is at risk for shingles.

Anyone who has had the chickenpox vaccine, is protected against shingles.

I had a relative who suffered tremendously from shingles. No pain relief was effective. It is not something to be wished on everyone.

Maybe I'm a hopeless optimist, but I think adults can be responsible to haul themselves into a doctor's office at least once every 10-20 years for a booster, as per the cdc. Although the shot lasting 10-20 years was only when the vaccine was new, and fewer people had received it so the protection it offered was less.

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100-150 lives saved - which as another posted pointed out that these were most likely immunocompromised or otherwise - but THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of adults put at risk for deadly or dangerous consequences later in life. Where are your statistics on those lives saved or as to how many fetuses were miscarried or born with disabilities due to the adults not updating their vaccine (or the vaccine waning as its time period runs out)? There is always a minority that benefits from something, but it cannot be on the account of everyone else. And it does NOT have to be on the account of someone else. Make this vaccine optional and let each parent decide what's best for their kid!

As for shingles - the first rule in the medical world is DO NO HARM. You don't cause any sort of harm for any secondary benefits. If shingles is your concern, then get the shingles vaccine or find other ways to approach the problem.

Since you yourself labeled yourself as a hopeless optimist, I hope you don't mind my concurring. Just look at the tetanus immunization records of adults and you'll find ample evidence. How many people are inocculated every ten years? When one steps on a nail, the majority have no exact recall of the last booster. And besides, they're often given a tetanus booster anyways since the effectiveness of the vaccine could be waning in its later years. Would you choose to have this same situation applied to our mothers of childbearing years? Are we going to have to institute a frequent check of our titers to ensure there's isn't any risk to a fetus?

In addition - the effectiveness of the vaccine is not 100%. There is a decent percentage who contract chickenpox, albeit a milder version, even after being vaccinated. The effects may be lessened on the adult, but would still pose harm to a fetus.

Amarante

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 1:55 pm

Interesting article in the Los Angeles Times on the stance of the American Academy of Pediatrics.

http://www.latimes.com/science......html

The nation’s pediatricians are pushing back against parents who resist having their children vaccinated against a broad range of dangerous diseases by calling on states to stop offering waivers to those with non-medical objections to the practice.

In a policy statement issued Monday, the American Academy of Pediatrics also said that if parents continue to refuse vaccinations despite exhaustive efforts to change their minds, it would be “acceptable” for doctors to exclude these families from their practices.

The pronouncements are intended to guide U.S. pediatricians as they grapple with a rising tide of vaccine “hesitancy” on the part of parents. Among doctors who are members of the nation’s largest organization of pediatricians, 87% have been challenged in the last year by parents who refused to have their children immunized, up from 75% in 2006.

Imperturbable in the face of colicky babies, toddlers’ tantrums and teen angst, many pediatricians have reached the end of their patience with parents who are unconvinced of vaccines’ life-saving benefits. In 2013, 12% of pediatricians routinely asked parents to find another physician if they weren’t willing to vaccinate their children. In 2006, only 6% routinely showed such parents the door, according to surveys by the academy.

Rest of article can be accessed through the hyperlink.

suremom

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 2:12 pm

Amarante wrote:

so if I come to the doctor with a child that is clearly ill he will say 'sorry I cant treat your kid, he wasnt vaccinated...' but if said child did get vaccines than come one come all! look where our 'freedom' is taking us Sad

Amarante

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 2:20 pm

suremom wrote:

You are misinterpreting as they are dealing with on going relationships between the doctor and the parents.

Most people have an ongoing pediatric Doctor so you wouldn't be showing up at the office of a strange doctor with an acutely sick child. If yiu have no doctor yiu go to acute care or ER.

I don't know if most doctors even give emergency appointments to people who aren't patients. Unless you are traveling, who doesn't have a pediatrician who sees the child regularly?

suremom

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 2:38 pm

Amarante wrote:

So whats the point of that article? that doctors should not treat unvax kids?

Amarante

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 2:48 pm

suremom wrote:

So whats the point of that article? that doctors should not treat unvax kids?

That doctors can feel okay about not permitting patients who won't vaccinate not in their practices.

As discussed in the article, it may provide additional pressure when a patient realizes his seriously a pediatrician takes vaccination.

As the article points out, why would a parent or doctor want a relationship if they disagree on a basic aspect of medicine.

Last edited by Amarante on Tue, Aug 30 2016, 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

suremom

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 3:01 pm

Amarante wrote:

That doctors can feel okay about not permitting patients who won't vaccinate not in their practices.

As discussed in the article, it may provide additional pressure when a patient realizes his seriously a pediatrician takes vaccination.

No as the article points out, any would parent or Doctor want a relationship if they disagree on a basic aspect of medicine.

I don’t see how disagreeing to do something preventive should interfere with treating a currently sick child. How does treating my kids ear infection have anything to do with the varicella vaccine?!?

Amarante

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 3:07 pm

suremom wrote:

If you don't vaccinate and have a pediatrician who supports that decision, why do you care what doctors do who don't treat your children.

This recommendation enables pediatricians to ethically and morally follow their conscience and refer non vaccinating patients to doctors who don't feel vaccination is critical part of good medical practice.

Pediatricians who believe in vaccination were faced with a dilemma and this provides them with guidance. It doesn't say they have to not treat but just that they can refuse to have non vaccinating children allowed in their practice. Freedom of choice for everybody. What is your gripe with this?

amother

Burgundy

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 3:21 pm

Amarante wrote:

Doesn't denying care to a sick or injured child cause them to be faced with a dilemma as well? It should, if they are any sort of decent human being, let alone doctor.
No, this has nothing to do with them being faced with an ethic or moral dilemma, it has everything to do with politics.

And sorry, but where is the freedom of choice? When a non-vaccinated child breaks their arm and is unable to get medical treatment because their parents have chosen to not vaccinate, there is no choice. That family is now forced to do something they are against.
This is not freedom.

suremom

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 3:27 pm

Amarante wrote:

how many doctors are in agreement with the parent that don’t want to vaccinate when it guarantees them multiple visits a year? In my area there are non. And do you seriously believe that your dr. who refuses to treat a child due to vax status will refer you to another dr.? doctors do try to follow the AMA recommendations. By recommending this they are causing a lot of kids not to be treated in a timely fashion. Now how ethical is that?

Amarante

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 3:36 pm

There are plenty of pediatricians who will treat children who aren't vaccinated.

No one is talking about an emergency situation but only an on going situation.

I don't understand why people don't find a doctor who accepts their views on medicine. Why should they even epwant to see a doctor who thinks they are medically negligent. I don't want my doctor to be a yes man but I also want a doctor who I feel shares my basic viewpoint on medical treatments.

This enables doctors to refer if they want to. Why should a doctor be forced to treat someone if they feel the relationship is bad because the patient and Doctor disagree on fundamentals.

I think people are reacting to their non vaccinating view points not being validated because there are many doctors who you can choose from. So these arguments are all beside the point. Critically ill patients will receive medical care.

I doubt there is any community with only one doctor who then refuses to treat any non vaccinated children.

moonbeam

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 3:38 pm

suremom wrote:

It's a very valid point. The families I know who don't vaccinate only go to the doctor for more emergent situations, such as broken bones or ear infections that aren't clearing up or allergic reactions. They might go to a doctor twice a year, total (that is total for families who have 5+ children). On the other hand the families I know who do vaccinate tend to take each child to the doctor several times a year for checkups and vaccinations and anytime the children are sick at all.
Definitely a difference in income that the doctor would be taking in from each family. 🤔

LittleDucky

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 3:51 pm

amother wrote:

You can always get medical treatment. Go to your pediatrician who agrees with your viewpoints on all things medicine. There are many out there who don't mind patients who don't vax, who delay vax or selectively vax.
Why would you want to go to a doctor who doesn't agree with you and thinks your beliefs are full of nonsense? Go to someone who takes your research and feelings seriously. I found a pediatrician I can trust. If he/she is practicing medicine on my family I want to know that they take my concerns and questions to heart. Mine does. Find one that agrees with you!
And emergency things like broken limbs are usually ER type situations- my pediatrician I don't think can do all that in his office. So vax status doesn't apply. No one is denied medical treatment.

amother

Forestgreen

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 5:27 pm

I moved 3 times and I did not have a problem finding MDs that were ok with our incomplete vaccination status. All 3 were experienced, well respected, and moral MDs. In my personal opinion, the doctors that refuse patients because of vaccination status have a chip on their shoulder and are trying to prove something. I wouldn't want to see a doctor with their philosophy anyway even fully vaccinated. A doctor should be able to handle themselves if a patient decides to forgo a medical procedure or if they are unsure and would like to look into it more and wait especially if there is no immediate risk involved. They are there to provide care to patients who ask for it, not to force their opinions down your throat. They can recommend medications and procedures as they see fit and that is where their job ends. The patient can decide to do what the doc says, to get another opinion, or to forgo it. It's their body, their choice.

pond user

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 5:38 pm

amother wrote:

Or...maybe it's the NHS in England that doesn't want to spend the money on shots for everyone, and therefore it came up with the "don't worry, it's no big deal" publicity line.

I dunno.. I've worked in childcare for a decade. I live in a huge community and know countless people. Not once in all the years I have lived have I met someone who even knows of someone who's had complications of the chickenpox. The ONLY person I know of is a distant relative in America who was vaccinated with chickenpox several years ago, caught chickenpox as a result and was hospitalised. I just don't buy this man made epidemic vaccines are causing. I don't trust lab induced viruses and I certainly don't trust what is injected into our children. See it how you want to but I'll stick to my route thank you.

amother

Forestgreen

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 5:46 pm

eemachana wrote:

And the first had experience of individuals who know people who are vaccine injured or died because of a vaccine doesn't count. Even the experience of a mom who's kid is vaccine injured (or dead by a vaccine) doesn't count.

Everyone is biased in some way.

Not only doesn't it count, but nobody believes it. They will ask for proof that it was caused by the vaccine.

Parent: immediately after receiving the dtap vaccine, my very healthy daughter started shaking and having full blown seizures.

Vaccine bully: well how do you know it was the vaccine?

Parent: she's never had this before and it happened immediately after the vaccine. It's mentioned as a side effect on the vaccine insert too.

Vaccine bully: it couldn't have been the vaccine, where's the proof?

Parent: um I just explained it to you. What more proof do you need?

Vaccine bully: You can't provide proof? You must be stupid and don't believe in science.

amother

Forestgreen

Tue, Aug 30 2016, 6:03 pm

amother wrote:

I can read. You said your aunt had an allergic reaction to a vaccine. And your son had side effect from vaccine. Anyone can have a allergic to anything. If you are saying both your son and your aunt had an allergic reaction then you are right, your family should use extreme caution cause your family has an immune response to it. Just like my family uses caution when trying out milk, it doesn't mean I will announce to the world that milk is dangerous and don't go near it.

I don't think the majority of people that don't vax care to announce it to the world. I personally do not care what medical decisions anybody else makes for themselves or their children. And I most certainly don't care if you decide to drink milk or not. Even though I disagree with you and think children can live without it. It's your choice and if you believe it's good, you are free to do as you please. It should be every persons choice to make for themselves. If everybody left the unvaccinated alone, and stopped bullying the heck out of them, I don't think anybody would have a need to say or announce anything.