Financial dispute with yeshiva summer camp

amother

Azure

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 9:50 am

Dh and I really wanted our 11 year old son to go to sleep away camp this past summer. Ds only wanted to go to sleep away camp for August so we registered him in his yeshiva camp for July. The cost was $900 and we paid prior to the summer. As camp was starting ds had a change of heart and said he would like to go to sleep away camp July as well. We immediately called to see if it was still possible, and it was. Ds went to his day camp exactly 3 days and then left for sleep away camp. The contract with the day camp was very short and didn't include any details about if a camper leaves early. The director of the camp says that we are really entitled to no money back at all, but refunded $200. I feel I shouldn't have to pay for more than 1 week. I don't think it's mentchlach to charge $700 for 3 days of camp. For the record, the camp director agrees that my son did not take up a spot that would have otherwise gone to another camper. Who's right?

amother

Azure

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 10:14 am

debsey wrote:

Don't you think this is a straightforward question for a Bais Hora'ah? You don't need a full formal din Torah, you need to ask a dayan what the halacha is in this case. I can't imagine a yeshiva camp (or a parent who wants to send to one) wouldn't want to do whatever it is that Halacha mandates in the situation.

Dh believes (and I agree with him) that if we ask our rav or a community posek, that they will be reluctant to pasken against a very well know neighborhood yeshiva. Even if I don't name the camp, since most people in our area send to 1 of 2 yeshiva camps, the posek would figure that it's a well known established yeshiva on the other side of this argument. And I believe that would influence the psak.

doctorima

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 10:29 am

I don't know who's "right" in terms of halacha, but given that there's no clear contract and that you didn't discuss it with the camp before pulling your son out (which would have been the better way to handle it), at this point the smoothest way to settle this is to go to a Rav to resolve it. If you're worried about your local Rav, is there someone else who would be mutually acceptable?

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 10:31 am

amother wrote:

I'm shocked that you and your DH believe that a Rav would pasken that way.

simcha2

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 11:58 am

I am not supporting one way or the other, but just to give you a different perspective. A camp plans based on the number of expected campers, they pre purchase tickets for trips, pay salaries based on expected income, hire staff based on ratios , buy supplies based on numbers etc. So while your child didn't use any of those resources it doesn't mean that they weren't purchased for him.

If everyone thought they could register and then pull at the last minute with no financial cost to themselves it would be impossible for the camps to plan and know that they won't go bankrupt.

Just another perspective.

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 11:59 am

amother wrote:

I don't think it's mentchlach to cancel daycamp at the last minute and feel entitled to a refund. You pare not paying for 3 days of camp - you are paying because you reserved a spot and held on to it, necessitating the camp to have resources available for your child, for the full trip.

I'm surprised, though, that there was nothing in the camp contract detailing that.

zaq

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 12:15 pm

The camp held a place for your ds. They possibly turned away another kid because they were at capacity. If they gave you a refund, they'd be out the money they could have earned if you had cancelled earlier and they would have been able to take this other kid. That they refunded you anything at all is taking the high road. What are they going to do three days before camp--put an ad in the paper "room for one more kid, act before midnight tonite"?

I can't believe they don't stipulate in the contract no refunds past a certain date. Their lawyer didn't do his job.

Lani22

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 1:01 pm

Similar thing happened to me kind of. I was suppose to be in the country only for july. I paid $1300 before the summer for a daycamp in the city for my daughter for august. I ended up being put on bedrest and kept my daughter in the country for august instead. The camp admitted that I had not help up a spot but would not refund my money. I did not dispute it at all. What could I do? I didn't think it was worth it to make a big stink about it. These things happen....

SixOfWands

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 1:05 pm

goodmorning wrote:

zaq, not OP but:

Perhaps not, but things are generally set up with a specific number of people in mind. If the camp has 20 kids, it may need 2 counselors; but once you go to even 25, you'll need a 3d. Same for transportation. Food orders. Even the activities that are planned. I certainly would not expect a refund one the summer began.

OP, do you have any younger children who might attend the yeshiva camp? If so, ask about splitting the difference with them by way of a reduced fee next summer for the younger child.

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 1:37 pm

Lani22 wrote:

I commend you for taking the high road, though I would mention that if you were an Ones - forced with no choice but to back out - then the Halacha might be different. This is not a psak - you would ask your LOR - but there's a difference between pulling out with no choice vs. because you found something you like better.

One of my siblings had an example of Ones, totally different: she registered her child in a particular daycamp for the summer. She actually did not pre-pay - she just paid a deposit. During the first week, her child had an appointment one day. She brought the child to the daycamp late - came in and found the woman's 11 year old daughter watching the entire group with no adult on the premises, as the woman had run out to perform a quick errand.

My sister pulled her child out of the daycamp, as this was not within her comfort zone and it had not been stipulated that the woman would leave an 11 year old in charge. The woman felt that by pulling out my sister owed her the balance of the fee. Sis asked a sheila and was told she did not owe them any money, since she was forced to pull out by her lack of comfort with the childcare, and that one could assume that registering a child with a married woman presumes that that women is in charge at all times, or hires someone similarly aged..... L'Halacha she could have demanded her deposit back, but she chose not to make it an issue.

amother

Azure

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 1:58 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I'm shocked that you and your DH believe that a Rav would pasken that way.

I believe I've read that you live in Lakewood. Do you 100% believe that if you were involved in a financial dispute with the Lakewood yeshiva, and you brought it to local Lakewood Rabbanim, they would be perhaps a little reluctant to side against the yeshiva? And you and your dh can go to the Lakewood rosh yeshivos and say "Rabbi ploni says your wrong and we are right". I believe even though a psak should be based purely on merit, many rabbanim would be scared to paskin against an established yeshiva.

cnc

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 2:09 pm

amother wrote:

I don't think think it's paskening for or against. This scenario doesn't sound that complicated to me and I assume the answer would be straight out one way or the other.

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 2:15 pm

amother wrote:

Yes 100% I believe that Rabbanim paskin according to the Halacha.

I actually had a question once regarding a situation with payment to DD's school, and the Rav paskened in my favor. And the school accepted that, point blank.

groovy1224

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 2:30 pm

It's a little late for this, but why would you sign your son up for the sleep away camp without first finding out if you'd get a refund from the day camp? It's certainly not a given that you'd get a full refund, so signing him up for the sleepaway camp and THEN asking for a refund was a little careless, if you ask me.

How could a camp (or any business) operate if people could pull out at any time and get all their money back? It should have been in the contract, which is their bad, but you should have asked before switching your son, and that's your bad. IMO.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Nov 17 2016, 2:39 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Kind of going OT here, but years ago, our shul was temporarily renting space from a well-known nonprofit org from Flatbush, and had a financial dispute with them to the tune of many thousands of dollars. Our well-known and respected rav felt we couldn't take the organization to a din torah since it would make us (the victims/the shul) look bad. So nothing is black/white, although in a perfect world it certainly would be.

OP - I understand not wanting to go to a local rav. Can you and the camp director together call Bais Horaah? They take money shailos all day. And then maybe they'll print this up in the Hamodia so we can see the answer!