The real Torah view about women?!

mommy3b2c

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 10:44 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

But they DO have to do with your life, because in order to stay a part of your community, you must follow these rules. Otherwise, you (I mean this as a general "you") will suffer. There is no Charedi community on Earth where you can do whatever you want, or not do the things you think are wrong, and get away with it. There will always be backlash.

I guess that's why I'm not part of such a community.

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 10:53 am

PinkFridge wrote:

www.theTorah.com looks to be a very problematic site. Just an FYI.
Personally, I would never say that the Torah goes against my morals and values. I would reevaluate my morals and values. And of course I would find people to ask, and do my own research and reading. This would not be one of my sources though.

It is based on an entire approach to Judaism - based on the Rambam's derech.

If you are not open to anything other than a chareidi mehalech, then yes it does run contrary to many chareidi principles. But many people, including me, think that many chareidi principles run contrary to the Torah.

So you would be okay having slaves, marrying off a daughter to the monster who raped her chv, selling your little daughter into slavery, and killing little babies because they were born into a certain nation? Is that moral?

amother

Brown

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 11:07 am

amother wrote:

The only thing that remotely satisfied many of my questions regarding this was this article:

http://thetorah.com/the-delibe.....orah/ (I left out the sources when I copied it.)

The Deliberately Flawed Divine Torah
The Theology of the Halachic Loophole

Rabbi Dr. Nathan Lopes Cardozo

Rabbi Akiva Eiger’s Responsa. Bar Ilan University.

I believe that the Torah is min hashamayim (“from heaven”) and that its every word is divine and holy. But I do not believe that the Torah is (always) historically true (sometimes it seems like Divine fiction), or that it is uninfluenced by external sources. On top of this, I am reminded of the observation by the famous Chassidic leader Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Rimanov, who suggested that the children of Israel heard only the Alef of Anochi of the Ten Commandments, which means that they did not hear anything since one cannot pronounce the Alef![1]

I stopped reading after this point. Where did he pick up this nonsense? Aside from the fact that you definitely can pronounce a Alef what on earth is he talking about when he suggests they only heard the Alef?Chazal say that they only heard the first two Dibros directly from Hashem the rest Moshe said but the type of people who write such articles don't believe what Chazal say is meant literally anyhow. And the Posuk explicitly says what Hashem did to make sure no one thought Moshe was saying the rest on his own. Etc.

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 11:11 am

amother wrote:

He didn't say it - the Rebbe of Rimanov did.

[1] Mentioned in Rabbi Naftali Zvi Horowitz of Ropschitz, Zera Kodesh (Jerusalem, 5714), Parashat Yitro.

PinkFridge

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 11:15 am

I really don't want to drag R. Cardozo through the mud. Many, many people were inspired by him years ago early in their journeys back to Yiddishkeit, and not just BTs. But there has been a dramatic shift in his approach and many of us, regretfully, cannot be mekabel from him anymore. ( http://www.cross-currents.com/.....awed/ )
I don't want to say more.

GreenEyes26

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 11:17 am

PinkFridge wrote:

And I throw everything AVROHOM GORDIMER writes into the metaphorical trash.

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 11:17 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I respect that you have different views. But I'm curious what you would answer to the question I asked you about morals?

amother

Brown

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 11:19 am

amother wrote:

He didn't say it - the Rebbe of Rimanov did.

[1] Mentioned in Rabbi Naftali Zvi Horowitz of Ropschitz, Zera Kodesh (Jerusalem, 5714), Parashat Yitro.

Did Rabbi Naftali Zvi Horowitz hear it directly from him? Are you sure he left nothing out?Why are either any type of authority on this over the description given in Pesukim themselves, Chazal and the Mesorah? Why can't they pronounce an Aleph?

This is my last post on this thread.

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 11:20 am

amother wrote:

Did Rabbi Naftali Zvi Horowitz hear it directly from him? Are you sure he left nothing out?Why are either any type of authority on this over the description given in Pesukim themselves and Chazal? Why can't they pronounce an Aleph?

This is my last post on this thread.

That's a great question, and I will try to find an answer.

PinkFridge

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 11:21 am

amother wrote:

I respect that you have different views. But I'm curious what you would answer to the question I asked you about morals?

Thank you for asking respectfully. I have to think about this. Though I probably won't be able to come up with an answer that you'd find satisfactory, I'm more of an emunah peshutah type Wink

leah233

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 11:41 am

amother wrote:

So you would be okay having slaves, marrying off a daughter to the monster who raped her chv, selling your little daughter into slavery, and killing little babies because they were born into a certain nation? Is that moral?

Being that none of these have been practiced for thousands of years not enough is know about the nature of these issues to ask or answer any moral questions based on them.But to clarify one point there is no obligation for a raped girl to marry her rapist. If SHE WANTS to, he has to marry her and may not divorce her. Being that the decision is up to her alone I don't see any moral issues here.

eschaya

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 12:13 pm

Back to the original question...
I struggled with this issue a while back (it's still not resolved for me, but I try to push it deep inside) and posted about this a few years ago. I read through many of the disturbing sources inside, and yes, they exist and from the pen of some very great and respected Torah scholars. But at the same time, I cannot - and will not ever - be able to reconcile those "truths" with what I know about myself and women in general.
Finally, I spoke to an adam gadol (R' Asher Weiss, please do not disseminate what he said in a private discussion as his psak or opinion) who recognized the issue and told me that if Gemarah were being codified today, and of course all the mefarshim that come after, it would look very different specifically in terms of how Torah shebe'al peh views and treats women. The implication is that, while I hesitate to use the word fallable, gedolim and important figures in our history were influenced by the prevailing ideas and thoughts of their times, which until modern history has considered women to be weak, fairly stupid, and incapable. In their defense, even though their ideas were no different than the rest of society, halacha did choose to treat women a lot better. Of course, in our times this doesn't pose much help. And for better or worse, since "lo biyedei shamayim hi", a lot of misogyny has been codified into halacha that binds us today.
But for me, allowing me to separate truth/what Hashem knows from the opinions of well-intentioned but fallible humans, has allowed me to continue to believe in Hashem (though my emunas chachamim is diminished, but with "sanction" from a very chareidi rav).

yksraya

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 12:26 pm

eschaya wrote:

Like like like like!!!!

If only each and every woman knows her real worth!!!!! We are the daughters of hashem!!! Don't let anyone diminish our worth by misinterpretations or worldy influences!!!

morningsickness

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 12:28 pm

Thank you for your post-EsChaya!
My husband really, really admires Rw Usher as an Ish Emet. If he said such a thing, I feel slightly better.

I hope when Moshiach comes this will all be resolved.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my posts. I especially benefitted from the understanding of what a shock some of these issues have been to me.

amother

Royalblue

Tue, Dec 06 2016, 1:15 pm

If rabbanim were a product of their times does that mean that their prohibition against pleasuring (wasting seed) is void now due the scientific knowledge that we now have there is an unlimited supply of millions of sperm count?

Also, could open orthodoxy take off in a big way due to their equal treatment of women across all aspects of Judaism?