Possible mamzer and issues with community

amother

Emerald

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 4:41 am

A woman from my community had a affair, got pregnant and before the baby was born got divorced.
My feeling on it was that I have no idea if the baby is the ex husband's or the new bf. Also maybe because she had a divorce before the baby was born it's not so straight forward and last of all, it's really none of my business and she's still a kimpeturin who needs help.
When I brought her food I was told that no one else had made food for her and that they wouldn't, and that all the usual stuff that's in place for laboring and post partum women wasn't available to her.
My question is why?
If the baby is a mamzer should it really affect the mum and other kids at this stage? Isn't it mainly an issue of who the baby will be able to marry and also wouldn't it make sense to just think that there might be a heter. At te end of the day we're still talking about a new mum who could be at risk of ppd, and she has other kids as well.

ora_43

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 5:02 am

There's no way to know why other people aren't bringing her stuff without asking them.

Are you completely sure that the people who usually organize these things realize that she had a baby, that she still considers herself part of the community, and that she needs help?

Often people don't give meals because they think someone needs help, they do it as a gesture of friendship. So... maybe they aren't feeling very friendly toward her right now. Or maybe they assume she's turned her back on the community. Either way, it might not be so much deliberately withholding needed help, as not thinking of meals as needed help in the first place (just look at any one of the dozens of threads here about bringing women meals after birth).

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 5:40 am

It's not because her child is a mamzer, it's because she had an affair! Getting the community to help 'as normal' would be almost like a stamp of approval. Unfortunately by not acting in a way that is acceptable within the community, she's caused this herself. If she needs help she can get it from her family and friends, like other people who are not part of a community.

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 5:51 am

GetReal wrote:

I think halachically if the husband and wife are living together at the time of conception we assume that the baby is his.

Yes, we always assume that the child of a married woman is her husband's child.

If the community wants to shun her for having an affair, that's their right. (Assuming that they also shun men who have had affairs...) But we're not talking about inviting her to a simcha. Helping a woman who has just had a baby is basic bikur cholim. How can people refuse that?

ora_43

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 5:53 am

amother wrote:

She called and asked for help, just like she's done other times and was told that she couldn't get help due to her circumstances.

This is what she told you? Did anyone in the community confirm?

Maybe I'm horrible for being suspicious, but I have had people lie about that before (ie tell people "only you will help me" when in fact many people have tried to help).

But assuming it's true, because it could very well be true... I mostly agree with you, OP, but again, I think it probably has more to do with her being considered not part of the community. I would guess people don't see themselves as punishing her or her kids, so much as reacting to her decision to distance herself from them. As they see it.

So the issue is less "should we punish the kids" (no, and I doubt many people would say yes) and more "when is it OK to assume someone is out of the frum community" (when they violate one of "the big 3"? or only if they don't keep basic halachot in public? Or only when they say so, regardless of what they do or don't keep?) or maybe "when is it OK to say certain programs are only for within the frum community." (eg if it's a social program, vs chessed).

ora_43

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 5:55 am

amother wrote:

Why is it the community's place to punish her? No one's perfect! She has kids and if she gets ppd as a result of the community's wish to punish her, they get punished as well!

I'm not sure it's fair to say someone is "punishing" if they don't go out of their way to help someone. I don't cook meals for 99.9% of the women in my city after birth, just because that's a TON of people. It's not a basic right that's owed.

OTOH, I'm not sure it's unfair to say that, either... will have to think.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 5:55 am

amother wrote:

Why is it the community's place to punish her? No one's perfect! She has kids and if she gets ppd as a result of the community's wish to punish her, they get punished as well!

A community is built on trust and values. Someone who has an affair is breaking trust and not keeping to those values. It's not a punishment, it's a natural consequence. And it's not about 'no-one's perfect' - she has just committed a massive aveira in what seems to be a very public way.

It will not be the community's fault if she gets ppd. Ppd isn't caused by a community not pitching in to make dinner, it's caused by a woman being left alone without any emotional support and/or physical help, which she doesn't have to be. It's her family and friends who have the responsibility here to help her out!

Also, is her husband is in the community it could be seen as taking sides or believing one side over the other - don't you think it's best if the community stay away from all of that? For her as well as her family, and for him?

I find it strange that you focused on the mamzer aspect. Totally seems irrelevant to the issue...

ora_43

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 5:57 am

amother wrote:

I forgot to add that the ex was very vocal about the baby not being his. I don't know if that makes a difference.

Does she agree? Did she really have an affair, or is that all according to her ex?

I do think it could make a difference. If she really did cheat, and the ex-husband is very angry and upset, people might feel like they have to choose and like helping her would hurt his feelings. I think that's a dangerous path to go down (that is, denying help to one side of a nasty divorce), but I can see the logic.

amother

Emerald

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 6:14 am

ora_43 wrote:

Yes, she is with the dad of the baby. No denying it.

amother

Emerald

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 6:16 am

amother wrote:

I find it strange that you focused on the mamzer aspect. Totally seems irrelevant to the issue...

That's what ppl talk about and I assumed that was why they aren't helping.
Othery ppl in the community have had affairs and weren't treated like that

amother

Smokey

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 7:31 am

This mom made a decision to have an affair and wreck the lives of her children by doing that. Let mr affair bring her meals. She had 9 months to prepare for this baby . No sympathy here..sorry. the day you become a parent for the first time you need to take responsibility for your actions. Don't blame a community for ppd when they won't support your actions.

ectomorph

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 7:35 am

I think people should help her quietly if she really wants it. Alienating her won't do much good in the long run.

However, I agree with not organizing meals publicly, etc.

Frankly if a man did this, my husband wouldn't talk to him or acknowledge him as part of the community. So I understand the instinct of the community. But this woman has kids... Shouldn't they be given a chance to be as normal as possible?

watergirl

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 8:20 am

amother wrote:

אסור בועל, אסור לבעל.

I agree with helping discreetly.
The child should also be eventually accepted in schools, we don't punish children for the sins of their parents.

I agree with you. Sadly in the case of mamzer - thats exactly what we do. This seems like a very complicated halachic situation all around and the baby needs compassion.

geulah papyrus

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 8:33 am

Assuming that the community is not helping her because she either had an affair or the child is not the (ex?) husband's child, this all just seems very wrong, unethical, etc. Are we supposed to pass judgement on each other and issue punishment? Or are we supposed to allow Hashem to do that? Not helping a new mother doesn't seem like a Jewish value. And knowing how quickly lashon hara spreads, and knowing how easy it is to make assumptions about other people's situations, why does the community latch on to the most negative assumption and act on it? Why not give the benefit of the doubt? Why cause even more suffering and alienation? Ugh. This makes me sad. This is why people leave.

amother

Amethyst

Mon, Dec 12 2016, 8:53 am

what type of community do you live in- "other people in the community have had affairs...." that is so sad....
about giving her meals- I think a rabbi should be consulted in this situation but my gut is like other people said of helping her quietly but not as a community so as not to seem like you are condoning her behavior.