Home

Origin of making a Bas Mitzvah
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic       Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Report offensive ad

View latest: 24h 48h 72h


Poll

Did you have a Bas Mitzvah party?
YES, a big one with guests
 25%  [ 29 ]
YES, a small one for my friends
 31%  [ 36 ]
More like a nice birthday party for siblings
 18%  [ 21 ]
No, my family doesnt hold of it
 25%  [ 30 ]
Total Votes : 116


tichellady









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 2:45 pm
Carmen Luna wrote:
So after all said and done, I haven't received a legitimate source (tichellady, I don't mean you, I'm referring to people that actually care about tradition and don't buy into every new enlightened and feminist trend hook, line and sinker) for making a Bas Mitzvah bash.


Thanks for reminding me why I hate being part of these threads when the op is not actually open to hearing anything that changes her original viewpoint . I may be more modern than you but at least I'm not an obnoxious person. Believe me if I "bought into every feminist trend" I wouldn't be on this site, wouldn't cover my hair, keep hilkhot niddah, or be an Orthodox Jew at all.
Back to top

Raisin









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 2:56 pm
I guess Sara Schneirer was following "enlightened and feminist trends" when she set up BY.

Like others said, when boys had and aliya on shabbos that was followed by some herring and a small seuda, girls didn't feel left out. But now people are making huge simchos for boys, I think it is ridiculous to do nothing for girls. Both boys and girls are obligated in mitzvos at age 12/13. If there is nothing to celebrate about a girl being obligated in mitzvos, why shouldn't I eat pork and drive on shabbos?
Back to top

5mom









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 3:05 pm
You don't need a source for everything.

I'm quite certain that you won't find a source for wearing a black fedora or a shtreimel anywhere, yet they have become de rigueur in some communities. Should we ban them for being new innovations?

It makes a lot more sense to celebrate a girl's reaching the age of mitzvos than to have an engagement party with all kinds of obligatory jewelry.

If you only did things with legitimate sources in halacha, your life would look very different.

You don't have to have to have a bat mitzvah for your daughter any more than I have to have an upsherin for my son.

I hope that the greatest fault of the Jewish people is that we celebrate a bat mitzvah.
Back to top

amother




Amethyst


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 3:37 pm
OP, I get that celebrating a Bas Mitzva wasn't part of your upbringing, well neither was it in mine. There's lots of things that different communities do differently. As long as there are no sources against celebrating a girl's entrance into womenhood, who cares?

There are many things that can't be traced all the way back, but that doesn't mean they are not allowed. Perhaps not done in our circles, but not wrong.

There's the advent of schools for girls as someone already mentioned, there's the clothing that we were, there's traditional foods that we eat. There are reasons for some, but many evolved over the years.
Back to top

Carmen Luna









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:06 pm
amother wrote:
OP, I get that celebrating a Bas Mitzva wasn't part of your upbringing, well neither was it in mine. There's lots of things that different communities do differently. As long as there are no sources against celebrating a girl's entrance into womenhood, who cares?

There are many things that can't be traced all the way back, but that doesn't mean they are not allowed. Perhaps not done in our circles, but not wrong.

There's the advent of schools for girls as someone already mentioned, there's the clothing that we were, there's traditional foods that we eat. There are reasons for some, but many evolved over the years.


I respectfully beg to differ however much it makes the more liberal of us on here uncomfortable and please see Reb Moishe Feinstein's psak:
the ceremony of Bat Mitzvah is certainly only a matter of reshut [optional] and hevel b’alma [futility]; there is no source to permit this in a synagogue. How much more so this is the case since the source comes from Reform and Conservative [movements]. Only if the [girl’s] father wants to make some kind of simchah at his home, it is permitted. But there is no concept or basis to consider this to be a . . . seudat mitzvah, because it is only like the simchah of an ordinary birthday party . . . [He discusses how he would eliminate Bar Mitzvah celebrations as well, but cannot because there are halachic sources for it], but to innovate the practice for girls, where there is no source at all to consider it a mitzvah, even in the house, certainly it would be better to prevent it
Back to top

Carmen Luna









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:09 pm
tichellady wrote:
Thanks for reminding me why I hate being part of these threads when the op is not actually open to hearing anything that changes her original viewpoint . I may be more modern than you but at least I'm not an obnoxious person. Believe me if I "bought into every feminist trend" I wouldn't be on this site, wouldn't cover my hair, keep hilkhot niddah, or be an Orthodox Jew at all.


I apologize for coming across as snarky but please understand its a two way street. Whenever you don't feel aligned with the OP'S mindset you tend to resort to comments like your 1st one how all I'm trying to do is look down at your upbringing, instead of realizing that the same way you have the express your hashkafa, feelings, rants and vents, so does everyone else, even if you don't see eye to eye
Back to top

Carmen Luna









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:17 pm
5mom wrote:
You don't need a source for everything.

I'm quite certain that you won't find a source for wearing a black fedora or a shtreimel anywhere, yet they have become de rigueur in some communities. Should we ban them for being new innovations?

It makes a lot more sense to celebrate a girl's reaching the age of mitzvos than to have an engagement party with all kinds of obligatory jewelry.

If you only did things with legitimate sources in halacha, your life would look very different.

You don't have to have to have a bat mitzvah for your daughter any more than I have to have an upsherin for my son.

I hope that the greatest fault of the Jewish people is that we celebrate a bat mitzvah.


The reason I brought up the subject of Bas Mitzvah because I (justly) felt that alot of amothers don't realize the mekor behind it. I hope I dont have to convince anyone here that a minhag that has reform roots is a wrong "minhag"..
I don't think you"ll be all too thrilled if you"ll be an old Bubby sitting with your grandchildren on Chanuka and they start singing "Oh Chanuka, Oh Chanuka" in the tune of "jingle bells" wearing a red and white pom pom hat.. They can have same attitude, "oh come one granny, lighten up".. who cares where the tune and hat stem from.
Back to top

5mom









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:20 pm
Carmen Luna wrote:
I respectfully beg to differ however much it makes the more liberal of us on here uncomfortable and please see Reb Moishe Feinstein's psak:
the ceremony of Bat Mitzvah is certainly only a matter of reshut [optional] and hevel b’alma [futility]; there is no source to permit this in a synagogue. How much more so this is the case since the source comes from Reform and Conservative [movements]. Only if the [girl’s] father wants to make some kind of simchah at his home, it is permitted. But there is no concept or basis to consider this to be a . . . seudat mitzvah, because it is only like the simchah of an ordinary birthday party . . . [He discusses how he would eliminate Bar Mitzvah celebrations as well, but cannot because there are halachic sources for it], but to innovate the practice for girls, where there is no source at all to consider it a mitzvah, even in the house, certainly it would be better to prevent it


Consider how long ago this was written. In the late 50s and early 60s, the rise of non-Orthodox movements posed a serious threat to Orthodoxy and so there was a certain amount of push back. It helps to understand the context.

Do you use a shabbos clock? Rav Moshe said you couldn't. (Orach Chaim 4:60) He was the posek of the generation, but not every single psak of his became mainstream halacha.

Life's not as black and white as you make it seem.
Back to top

amother




Beige


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:28 pm
Carmen Luna wrote:
The reason I brought up the subject of Bas Mitzvah because I (justly) felt that alot of amothers don't realize the mekor behind it. I hope I dont have to convince anyone here that a minhag that has reform roots is a wrong "minhag"..
I don't think you"ll be all too thrilled if you"ll be an old Bubby sitting with your grandchildren on Chanuka and they start singing "Oh Chanuka, Oh Chanuka" in the tune of "jingle bells" wearing a red and white pom pom hat.. They can have same attitude, "oh come one granny, lighten up".. who cares where the tune and hat stem from.


You're headed down a slippery slope here. There are quite a few minhagim (especially among chassidim, don't ask me why) that have their origins in non-Jewish practices. (Upsherin and shlissel challah, for example.) We usually lighten up and go with the flow.
Back to top

andrea levy









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:30 pm
Carmen Luna wrote:
According to one Amother my belief system is too much to the right, making some amothers "uncomfortable". Well, so be it. Women writing that the have a hard time believing in Hashem, Moshiach or Taharas Hamishpacha, makes me VERY uncomfortable. Anyhow, putting that aside, the whole phenomenon of making a Bas Mitzvah is foreign to me and countless other traditional Orthodox families. Granted, we acknowledge that a girl turning 12 is entering womanhood and is a reason to say Tehillim and buy her a nice gift, befitting the situation, for example a nice leather set of siddur and a tehiilim or jewelry etc. but I'm curious how the custom of making a big party/bash crept into frum circles. I was taught, as well as making my own research on the subject is that it has no basis in our Mesorah and was started by Mordecai Kaplan, the founder of the Modern Orthodox movement and later of the Reconstructionist movement in the year 1922.
If someone has a legitimate source for making a whole to do, please provide. Thanks and lets the hugs begin Laughing Laughing


I needed a source to throw a celebration of my daughter turning 12? Really? Why do you care what I do? It's really none of your business.

We invited our entire community to lunch at the shul, and a Tish to celebrate shavuous. My daughter learned Megillah rut and read it for two hundred women.

I think it was meaningful to us and our families, and the whole thing was done in our orthodox shul under the guidance of our LOR.

You don't like it? Suck it up. Do what you want when your girl turns bat mitzvah.
Back to top

Carmen Luna









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:40 pm
5mom wrote:
Consider how long ago this was written. In the late 50s and early 60s, the rise of non-Orthodox movements posed a serious threat to Orthodoxy and so there was a certain amount of push back. It helps to understand the context.

Do you use a shabbos clock? Rav Moshe said you couldn't. (Orach Chaim 4:60) He was the posek of the generation, but not every single psak of his became mainstream halacha.

Life's not as black and white as you make it seem.


Allow me to share an anecdote that Tzaddikim used to describe people who twist Gedolim's words to fit their agenda and needs.
Years ago, there was a simple tailor from a small town so primitive that no one had any watches or clocks and weren't even able to tell the time. The tailor, lets call him Zusha, always dreamt of having a watch and learning how to tell the time, so he saved up penny by penny and finally realized his dream by purchasing a watch from the next peddler who passed by the town. After learning how to tell the time, Zusha strutted around the town so proudly, explaining everyone that in big cities, people eat their meals at a certain time and go to sleep at a certain time and now he can do that as well. Along came Tovya the water carrier and asked him, "But Zusha, what happens if your hungry or tired?? Do you have to wait till the assigned time to go to sleep/eat? That sounds like your tied down to the time!" Zusha, ever so smugly looks at him and replies "Of course not Moishe, that's the beauty of the watch! Whenever I get hungry and I see that I still have 3 hours until dinnertime all I have to do turn this little knob and the time changes according to my preference.......

That's exactly why your post doesn't warrant an answer. Some food for thought
Back to top

tichellady









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:44 pm
Carmen Luna wrote:
I apologize for coming across as snarky but please understand its a two way street. Whenever you don't feel aligned with the OP'S mindset you tend to resort to comments like your 1st one how all I'm trying to do is look down at your upbringing, instead of realizing that the same way you have the express your hashkafa, feelings, rants and vents, so does everyone else, even if you don't see eye to eye


I am actually very open minded and friends/family with many people with different hashkafas than my own. I don't expect everyone to be the same or feel the same as me. I think your question offended me because you started off with a premise that those who celebrate bat mitzvah need to defend why they are doing this- as if it's a very controversial and polarizing practice that emerged in the last year, when in reality, it's rather mainstream within centrist orthodoxy and is not even considered radical for at least the past 30 years.

People have been answering your question with some very good answers but you seem very stuck in only looking at the Rav Moshe psak. Rav Moshe Feinstein is no longer alive today. Maybe he would have changed his mind about bat Mitzvah celebrations, maybe he would not have. He was writing in a very different time from today when he felt that the conservative and reform movement were a threat to the orthodox community. That is no longer the case. He is one halakhic authority, but there are many others, that people follow, that wrote about bat mitzvah celebrations in a positive way, such as Rav Ovadiah Yosef and Rav Soloveitchik. I grew up in a synagogue where the rabbi was a descendant of Rav Moshe Feinstein ( and very much respected his opinion) and we did have a mother daughter bat mitzvah party for the shul so clearly the rabbi didn't think it was problematic.
Back to top

5mom









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:45 pm
Carmen Luna wrote:
Allow me to share an anecdote that Tzaddikim used to describe people who twist Gedolim's words to fit their agenda and needs.
Years ago, there was a simple tailor from a small town so primitive that no one had any watches or clocks and weren't even able to tell the time. The tailor, lets call him Zusha, always dreamt of having a watch and learning how to tell the time, so he saved up penny by penny and finally realized his dream by purchasing a watch from the next peddler who passed by the town. After learning how to tell the time, Zusha strutted around the town so proudly, explaining everyone that in big cities, people eat their meals at a certain time and go to sleep at a certain time and now he can do that as well. Along came Tovya the water carrier and asked him, "But Zusha, what happens if your hungry or tired?? Do you have to wait till the assigned time to go to sleep/eat? That sounds like your tied down to the time!" Zusha, ever so smugly looks at him and replies "Of course not Moishe, that's the beauty of the watch! Whenever I get hungry and I see that I still have 3 hours until dinnertime all I have to do turn this little knob and the time changes according to my preference.......

That's exactly why your post doesn't warrant an answer. Some food for thought


I'm afraid I don't see what this has to do with my post.

If you don't like the idea that a psak is relevant to the time when it was written, could you please address the second part? Sometimes Rav Moshe issued a psak and was overruled.

You have exactly one support for your position, and it's not as strong as you think it is.
Back to top

allthingsblue









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:47 pm
I'm sorry, but if the ultra chareidi girls in yerushalayim have bas mitzvahs, I think there's no need to worry about the "mekor."
Back to top

Carmen Luna









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:47 pm
amother wrote:
You're headed down a slippery slope here. There are quite a few minhagim (especially among chassidim, don't ask me why) that have their origins in non-Jewish practices. (Upsherin and shlissel challah, for example.) We usually lighten up and go with the flow.


PLEASE, oh please tell me how upsherin and shlissel challah originate from goyishe sources
Back to top

allthingsblue









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:51 pm
Carmen Luna, while there are some posters who do put down chareidi lifestyle, tichel lady's posts are always helpful and not derisive. even when posters post about problems that are unique to a chareidi lifestyle that could easily be avoided, she offers ideas to help! So calling her out like this was unwarranted on your part, and made me view you in a different light. I'm sorry.
And you have not addressed the poster who brought up Sara schenerir. Would you have been one of those who threw rocks at her for audaciously suggesting the opening of a women's yeshiva??
Back to top

Carmen Luna









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:51 pm
andrea levy wrote:
I needed a source to throw a celebration of my daughter turning 12? Really? Why do you care what I do? It's really none of your business.

We invited our entire community to lunch at the shul, and a Tish to celebrate shavuous. My daughter learned Megillah rut and read it for two hundred women.

I think it was meaningful to us and our families, and the whole thing was done in our orthodox shul under the guidance of our LOR.

You don't like it? Suck it up. Do what you want when your girl turns bat mitzvah.


Being raised Conservative I can see why this would strike a raw nerve.. Besides since you once suggested an amother that it's better off her son marry a nonjewish woman rather than alienate her, I find your sensivity to such matters seriously warped. Here you go...

You'll do nothing but alienate them if you alienate them. It's my opinion that you have a much better chance of having Jewish grandchildren if you entice her by showing the warm and friendly side rather than alienation. It's also not unheard of for halachically not Jewish children to choose conversion based on their education or desire to be a part of the klal shown to them

I mean, seriously
Back to top

allthingsblue









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:54 pm
Sheesh, Carmen Luna, the vitriol in your posts just makes me nod my head in exasperation....
And yes, we will continue to proudly make bas mitzvahs for our daughters despite your vehement protests.
Back to top

5mom









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:56 pm
Carmen Luna wrote:
PLEASE, oh please tell me how upsherin and shlissel challah originate from goyishe sources


Better yet, you show me the Jewish sources.
Back to top

Carmen Luna









  


Post  Mon, Jan 09 2017, 5:58 pm
tichellady wrote:
I am actually very open minded and friends/family with many people with different hashkafas than my own. I don't expect everyone to be the same or feel the same as me. I think your question offended me because you started off with a premise that those who celebrate bat mitzvah need to defend why they are doing this- as if it's a very controversial and polarizing practice that emerged in the last year, when in reality, it's rather mainstream within centrist orthodoxy and is not even considered radical for at least the past 30 years.

People have been answering your question with some very good answers but you seem very stuck in only looking at the Rav Moshe psak. Rav Moshe Feinstein is no longer alive today. Maybe he would have changed his mind about bat Mitzvah celebrations, maybe he would not have. He was writing in a very different time from today when he felt that the conservative and reform movement were a threat to the orthodox community. That is no longer the case. He is one halakhic authority, but there are many others, that people follow, that wrote about bat mitzvah celebrations in a positive way, such as Rav Ovadiah Yosef and Rav Soloveitchik. I grew up in a synagogue where the rabbi was a descendant of Rav Moshe Feinstein ( and very much respected his opinion) and we did have a mother daughter bat mitzvah party for the shul so clearly the rabbi didn't think it was problematic.


Tendler by any chance?
Back to top
Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next Recent Topics

Page 3 of 4 View latest: 24h 48h 72h


Post new topic       Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Similar Topics Replies Last Post
Making Bas Mitzvah for Daughter
by amother
12 Thu, Jun 04 2009, 1:57 pm View last post
Friend making a Bas Mitzvah on Shabbos Tisha B'av
by amother
6 Mon, Jun 08 2015, 12:56 pm View last post
by egam
Bar Mitzvah - Bas Mitzvah
by amother
9 Tue, May 23 2006, 12:22 pm View last post
Bas mitzvah
by amother
4 Mon, Nov 07 2016, 6:20 pm View last post
Bas mitzvah
by amother
7 Thu, Dec 08 2016, 12:09 am View last post

Jump to:  







Report offensive ad