Ivanka Trump - heter to drive on Shabbos bec pikuach nefesh

MagentaYenta

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 3:29 pm

Fox wrote:

If you follow her on Twitter, she often posts pix on Friday afternoons of her kids dressed for Shabbos. It's cute and fun, and it makes me feel Shabbosdik.

She has mentioned her trusted nanny as well. Heck she's no different than any other wealthy frum Jewish woman who runs her own business.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 3:34 pm

Ivanka Trump is the daughter of a controversial and divisive president. Her husband is an official advisor, and she is a defacto advisor. She is extremely high profile and representative of the Trump "brand" and has been the subject of a lot of cricism. She is an Orthodox Jew is a country in which anti-Semitism is unfortunately common. The inauguration puts her front and center in the public eye and also physically, making her vulnerable to violence. There are going to be massive protests against the President and, by extension, his family throughout Shabbos.

She is getting security protection by the Secret Service, as she is entitled to do.

I think it's plainly obvious that she is a target and at risk of violence, especially during the inauguration when emotions are high and a mob mentality is likely. Is that not pikuach nefesh?

I doubt she'll be driving. She'll be riding in an armored vehicle driven by the Secret Service.

This is her life now. She should be encouraged to hold observance despite the obstacles. If she weren't committed, would she have asked for a heter instead of just doing it on her own?

(sorry to be anon. This is in a public forum and I believe I have an IRL stalker)

Edit: if you really want to discuss a theoretical controversial heter, try the related thread listed at the bottom of this one titled "Cannibalism- pikuach nefesh." Very Happy

MagentaYenta

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 3:59 pm

wondergirl wrote:

How is riding in a car any different than taking the shabbos elevator (which many Modern Orthodox and Orthodox Jews do)?

Frankly I'm more interested in the Neo Nazi's in Whitefish MT and their threats to that tiny Jewish (nonFurm, nonOrthodox) community.

Raisin

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:02 pm

wondergirl wrote:

How is riding in a car any different than taking the shabbos elevator (which many Modern Orthodox and Orthodox Jews do)?

Each passenger in a car increases something.

A bus is much less problematic. I read somewhere a city in India had a shabbos bus to transport Jews on shabbos. (paid for by a rich person so no one needed to handle money) Can't see that flying in Israel though.

tichellady

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:04 pm

Pita wrote:

If any of us mere mortals asked for a heter to attend an important family event for non-frum or non-Jewish family, we would be told that we should just skip it or make arrangements to stay within walking distance. Ivanka was not elected and has no obligation to attend.

Do you really think this????

When I was in seminary I had friends from non-frum families and the rov there gave them all sorts of specific rulings for students to be able to spend time with their family that involved kashrut and Shabbat. A good rabbi doesn't care if you are rich or famous. He understands the difference between derabbanan and deoraita and knows what's negotiable and what's not and will work with you to make things work (just to be clear, this was a big posek, not a random seminary teacher).

Second of all, if you believe that ivanka and Jared are in the halakhic category of "karov lamalchut" then there is lots of room for rabbinic prohibitions to be taken more lightly. Being driven by a car by a non- Jew (assuming it's all arranged and paid before Shabbat) is a rabbinic prohibition. You don't need pikuach nefesh to override a rabbinic prohibition. I'm not an expert Halacha but this is something I have read about before

Last edited by tichellady on Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

wondergirl

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:07 pm

Raisin wrote:

What does the bolded mean? And why is a bus less problematic?

amother

Cerise

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:10 pm

Raisin wrote:

There's a bus like that for a Reform Temple in Philadelphia. You don't have to pay, and it takes you to and from shul. I've asked why that's not feasible for Orthodox communities. The bus would need to stop at each stop and open its doors whether or not someone was trying to get on or off. It would give elderly and mobility-challenged people so much more flexibility. I've never found an answer.

Anon -- location mentioned.

Iymnok

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:13 pm

There is a problem of Amira l'nochri. If the family is staying in the White House over shabbos, the kids can go before shabbos and stay with a babysitter. She could walk with secret service guys.
That would be a huge kiddush Hashem.

I do think she should light where she's staying.

If they are driving the car purely for the sake of a Jew who is not in immediate danger, it is a melacha doraisa through a shaliach. I haven't read any reports on it, but I don't see how it could be permitted.

SixOfWands

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:15 pm

Fox wrote:

Please sit down, ladies. You may even need smelling salts.

SixOfWands and I agree on something with political overtones. Yeah, I said it.

This whole thing is coming from Mark Zell on an Israeli radio interview. Now, I'm sure Mr. Zell is a fine individual, but I don't see him as having an inside track on any of this.

While I wouldn't be joining any of the women's marches, I would kinda like one of those cute pink hats! Oldest DD, Clementine (who makes me look like a liberal apologist), says she wants to stitch "MAGA" on the front of one just to mess with people's heads.

Watch the video of the start of Al Franken's questioning of Rick Perry. Its less than a minute. You'll agree its hysterical. And that it cannot be posted here. Then we can agree on two things.

wondergirl

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:20 pm

Iymnok wrote:

I've seen many Frum Jews stand on the street on Shabbos trying to get someone to turn their lights off or their ac on which they do when no one is in immediate danger. Even chasidishe Jews do it. How is it different than someone doing something for Ivanka Trump (in this case, driving her home)?

Iymnok

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:24 pm

wondergirl wrote:

Many, if not most people don't know the halachos. They really can't just do anything for you. Driving a car is more strict. Every combustion is another melacha. There are hundreds a minute. There is a simple solution. So why look for leniencies that are really really bidieved?

Chocoholic

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:24 pm

wondergirl wrote:

Because they are so heilig.
People like to talk LH about Ivanka because she's not on their holy level of observance and her life is very public. And she has money.

Iymnok

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:30 pm

Chocoholic wrote:

Because they are so heilig.
People like to talk LH about Ivanka because she's not on their holy level of observance and her life is very public. And she has money.

Actually, here I find it to be a fascinating halachic and hashkafic scenario. Like a what would you do? type discussion.
The same type of thing was floating around Sen. Lieberman too.
She's nit the first Orthodox Jew in a high profile position. The question is how will she keep Halacha and will she let society dictate what she should do?

I'm happy to come up with solutions for her! Very Happy

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:31 pm

Iymnok wrote:

So let's be DLKZ and assume the car is a Tesla- no internal combustion engine.

tichellady

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 4:32 pm

Iymnok wrote:

Amira lanochri is a rabbinic prohibition, not deoraita, even if the action is deoraita. If the action is derabbanan then it's permissible to ask a gentile in cases of need.

amother

Mauve

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 5:00 pm

wondergirl wrote:

Riding in a car on Shabbos is uvdo l'chol in it's biggest form which is 100% assur. (No connection to 'hinting' to a non-Jew that one needs the light off).

Though defying Trump might honestly be pikuach nefesh so who am I to judge the circumstances.

amother

Blush

Thu, Jan 19 2017, 5:22 pm

amother wrote:

Riding in a car on Shabbos is uvdo l'chol in it's biggest form which is 100% assur. (No connection to 'hinting' to a non-Jew that one needs the light off).

Though defying Trump might honestly be npikuach nefesh so who am I to judge the circumstances.

But it's not doraisa.