Why do super yeshivish women refer to me as Mrs?

amother

Khaki

Sun, Feb 19 2017, 11:13 pm

I often call women Mrs XYZ because I don't know\can't remember their first name.
I also think its much more appropriate to call someone Mrs and wait for them to say please call me ABC.
I remember a women I know who is not FFB and not yeshivish and is at least 20 years older then me called me Mrs ..., and I told her to call me my first name, I felt she was definetly doing it as a formality. I don't think it is a frum thing.

amother

Rose

Sun, Feb 19 2017, 11:28 pm

It's one thing to want to be Mrs. to children. That's a cultural preference. I grew up with that too, in an MO neighborhood. I live in Israel now and it would be ridiculous to use anything but my first name.

Being Mrs. to your peers is deliberately creating distance. I find it borderline dishonest when I work with someone who refers to himself as Mr. Schwartz. How am I supposed to trust you if you won't even give me your first name?

As I posted here once, I've spoken to plenty of Roshei Yeshiva who introduce themselves as Ploni Almoni. I refer to them as Rabbi Almoni or the Rosh Yeshiva.

Also, why does a married 19 year old get a title while an unmarried 30 year old gets addressed by her first name?

It strikes me as pompous to use titles with your peers. Because with all due respect to the great Jane Austen (Miss Austen to you) we don't live in Regency England.

imasinger

Sun, Feb 19 2017, 11:52 pm

amother wrote:

The system, when practiced right, grants a title equally to the married woman of 19 and the unmarried woman of 30. And to a man, whether married or not, of any age.

The OP was commenting on something which she had seen to some extent in her community.

In Israel, where informality is the cultural norm, it might seem especially odd or standoffish.

But that is purely cultural, not innate.

One aspect of politeness is to, whenever possible, follow the norms of the place you are in.

While it might be perceived as rude in your average Israeli business office for Mar Laivi to refuse to refer to himself as Yoni at work, the reverse might be the case if he were the principal of the school, and you, one of the teachers.

amother

Rose

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 12:44 am

imasinger wrote:

First, the system isn't practiced right. We honor married women with a title, but call single women by their first names.

I agree that politeness means following the prevailing norms, and that's why it's rude when frum businesses don't. I used to live and work in the States. Business etiquette is that everyone from the CEO on down goes by first names. Thus Bill, not Mr. Gates. When the plumbing supplier calls and introduces himself as Mr. Schwartz , you've got to wonder what he's hiding. It's not as bad as doing business with a fellow who only introduces himself as Mugs, but it's close. I know why he does it, but I can't imagine that it's worth giving a bad impression.

Titles don't accomplish anything. In the fifties, secretaries and bosses used titles, but they still managed to have affairs. The only thing you accomplish by insisting on a title is looking pretentious.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 2:48 am

imasinger wrote:

While it might be perceived as rude in your average Israeli business office for Mar Laivi to refuse to refer to himself as Yoni at work, the reverse might be the case if he were the principal of the school, and you, one of the teachers.

Actually, no, in Israel the teachers refer to the principal, and to the superintendents, all by first name. The only exception is rabbis and some charedi schools.
I am curious if all the twenty year olds out there who insist on 'Mrs' are as insistent on calling their unmarried peers Miss.
In any case I dont use the term Mrs, and if forced to choose a title will choose Ms.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 3:51 am

it is a cultural thing.

speaking 6 languages and having lived in very different culural backgrounds,(ie. I was socialized in very different circles) I have come across all sorts of expectations reagrding how to refer to relatives/coworkers/nieghbours/strangers...

my children are young(2 and 4), but they refer to their friends mothers as 'miriams mommy' or 'duvidls mommy' or recently even' mrs. cohen'...

I teach and some children call me mrs. grossstein, some say ruthie. im fine with both.

many cannot understand how I can possibly allow my students to be so casual and show lack of respect towards me by calling me first name... again, it is cultural.

my mother wanted to be referred to by her first name (even in her work, she works as a md- thats super unusual, many patience would say dr.springbaum, but soem really would call her just debby)

BUT I refer to my mil with mrs.grosstein!!! this is totally expected!!!
see, what a huge difference!

what I dislike is when my children'S friends refer to me as 'grossstein'- please either call me 'mrs. grossstein ' or 'ruthie'.

(all names are made up Wink

)

imasinger

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 6:08 am

amother wrote:

If a business operates in a frum community, then they can use that community's cultural norms. I'm sure Bill Gates doesn't wear tztitzis, yarmulke, a white shirt, and black pants to work. Neither does most of corporate America. That doesn't mean that in Lakewood, it's wrong to do so.

Me, I don't judge anyone or assume nefarious reasons for how they choose to identify themselves, as long as it's honest. If the name someone gives is their own, I don't think they're hiding anything important. That's an area you might want to consider working on being dl"z. Maybe their first name is Engelbert, and they never came up with a good nickname.

Quote:

Titles don't accomplish anything. In the fifties, secretaries and bosses used titles, but they still managed to have affairs. The only thing you accomplish by insisting on a title is looking pretentious.

1. I don't think that they used titles if they were having affairs. At least not in private.

2. I agree with the bolded. Between adults, it's best not to INSIST on a title.

Which doesn't mean that if a person wants, they can't let their preference be known by how they introduce themselves.

I am in my mid 50's, and still address some of the much older principals of the schools where I work as Mrs. But in other places where things are less formal, I call them by their first name. I respect them all, and don't think anyone is hiding anything.

amother

Rose

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 6:53 am

imasinger wrote:

[/b]

1. I don't think that they used titles if they were having affairs. At least not in private.

2. I agree with the bolded. Between adults, it's best not to INSIST on a title.

Which doesn't mean that if a person wants, they can't let their preference be known by how they introduce themselves.

I am in my mid 50's, and still address some of the much older principals of the schools where I work as Mrs. But in other places where things are less formal, I call them by their first name. I respect them all, and don't think anyone is hiding anything.

When there's a status imbalance such as child/adult, teacher/student, then I see using titles according to cultural norms. When two people are equals (customer and client, for example) it's off-putting for one party to insist on a title.

saw50st8

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 7:01 am

Fox wrote:

I would ask where they got the idea that using first names connotes friendliness while using titles and last names connotes aloofness.

I would also point out that asking children to use first names for adults is very disrespectful -- to the children. It implies an equality of relationship that doesn't really exist. Asking someone to call you by your first name implies a level of equality in the relationship; if that's not true, then the pretense of equality is just mean.

It's really obnoxious to insist on calling someone by a name they don't want to be called by. That's just bad chinuch.

I don't appreciate being called Mrs. Anything (never mind that I'm not a Mrs) and I find it so offputting when people insist on deciding what I should be called. I also find it so disrespectful (of the parents, not the kids).

Tablepoetry

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 7:12 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Agreed 100%.
If you want to be called Mrs., that is your right, but let me decide what I want to be called. It definitely is not nor ever was Mrs. (Nor do I want to be called Ms, which I use only when I really have no choice).

If you are so opposed to your child calling an adult by their first name, and that adult insists upon it, then you can quietly, discreetly, privately, tell your child just not to refer to that adult by any name. Really, unless it's their teacher or aunt, I can't imagine a situation when a kid MUST refer to an adult on a constant basis.
If it's their friend's parent or something, the child can say things along the lines of 'thank you for having me over'. Really no need to insert 'Mrs. Cohen' if Mrs. Cohen doesn't appreciate it.

imasinger

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 7:28 am

amother wrote:

There is only an imbalance if that person insists on a title, while calling others by their first name. Which is not, I think, what the OP was talking about.

amother

Blush

Mon, Feb 20 2017, 7:55 am

I'm 39. For the past 10 years or so, since I have had kids, I have vastly preferred to be called Mrs. [___] as opposed to my first name, and I do the same with all other married women that I encounter. It feels disrespectful if my son's pre-teen friends call me by my first name, and creepy when my husband's friends do. I rarely correct anyone (except if I feel like it's a big disrespect). I try to model respectful behavior for my kids as well, and I refer to my friends as Mrs. [___] in front of them as well, to train them in the way that I like being treated myself.

You can extrapolate that the wider world has no boundaries, rules, or respect hierarchy anyway, so it doesn't matter in the wider world, but in the Torah world where we have beneficial rules and guidelines to mold our behavior, this idea of respect is useful.