To Hijab or Not to Hijab?

SixOfWands

Wed, Feb 22 2017, 6:09 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

And that nonJewish woman driving through Monsey wearing bermuda shorts who stops somewhere to grab a cold drink, would there be such an understanding of her garb?

Not directly pointed at you but merely playing devils advocate. And to make it more confusing I'm MO and I don't cover. I will cover if going to a simcha and it is the hostesses tradition to cover, or the communities. For me it's a matter of respect. I do wear a hijab when I cover.

There are plenty of places a non-Jewish woman could stop for a drink in Monsey.

The problem is for the woman who keeps kosher, and wants to grab a piece of pizza in a short-sleeved shirt.

And I would love to see a photo of you in a hijab. Why do you choose a hijab as opposed to, say, a tichel.

ectomorph

Wed, Feb 22 2017, 6:13 pm

Also, I'm probably the only person here who owned a hijab before I lost it. I used to live in a Palestinian American neighborhood... One of the 9/11 bombers lived 2 blocks away. I bought one because I always had this fear about them and wanted to be able to pass outside if necessary. (We'd had a few anti semitic incidents)

FranticFrummie

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 12:01 am

chavi100 wrote:

FranticFrummie, you can't see any irony in that statement? Do you ask your three year old if she wants to dress tzniusdik?

I will admit that it was late a night when I wrote that, so maybe I was not clear. Did you read the whole thing, or just that one line? Reading comprehension is rapidly becoming a lost art.

Paragraph breaks are there to show a shift in thought or topic.

For example, if a woman likes being a SAHM, and she has the economic freedom to do that, that is a CHOICE.

If this woman is kept chained to the oven all day, she's still a SAHM, but that is NOT a choice.

Got it?

For the record, at 3, DD was dressed appropriately for the weather, with enough freedom of movement to allow normal exercise and development. She's 13 now, and she still dresses that way. My main rule is that she put on a skirt when she leaves the house, OUT OF RESPECT for the community standards. If she decided to defy me and leave the house without a skirt, in just leggings, I would not chase her down and beat her with a stick.

DrMom

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 2:31 am

ectomorph wrote:

The French are feeling that Islamic culture is being forced on them. Her act of defiance is being interpreted as a refusal to participate in the Islamization of France. Hence her rise in the polls - she is now the front runner.

I personally take no position. I believe in modesty and would rather Westerners dressed better but wouldn't want it forced on anyone.

This.

That being said, she could have worn a hat or some other head covering (a beret? a jaunty French milliner's stylish concoction?) to be diplomatic while still broadcasting her unwillingness to be subjugated by sharia law.

BTW, about 25% of Lebanon is Christian, and many women in Lebanon don't wear hijabs. The occasion in question was Marie Penn meeting with the Grand Mufti, not walking around in Lebanon in general.

HindaRochel

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 2:53 am

The key issue is force. You don't force them to, you don't force them not to, unless there are other issues that necessitate either wearing an item or not wearing an item.

moonstone

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 3:13 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

You wear a hijab? Really? Or is that an autocorrect mistake?

Forrealx

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 3:30 am

Well, in my opinion...

Me as mb a lot of other MO ppl are not keeping tznius everytime like me and some other MO ppl are wearing pants through the week and skirts on chagim and shabbat. So in that case when I'm visiting for instance a satmar family I will not do that in the clothes I wear in the university. I also went on a trip to istanbul and to watch islamic buildings we used to wear a little shawl on our head. Nothing more. And if Le Pen is so against hijabs she has to be against tichels as well.

ora_43

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 5:16 am

Fox wrote:

But refusing to wear a hijab when visiting a place where that is the custom seems a little too close to denying Muslim women their agency, like saying, "Oh, you poor dears! Let me tell you what I think should bother you most about your society." It's one thing to join Iranian women in whatever type of protest they initiate; it's another to impose it from outside.

But who gets to decide what the custom is?

Especially in a place like Lebanon. Lebanon is not a Muslim country, it's a religiously mixed country. I think that wearing a hijab could sometimes be taken as a message of "yes, I agree that this is a religious/Muslim area and religious Muslim norms are *the* norms" - that's also problematic.

In this case she was meeting with a sheikh in his office. It sounds to me like a power play on both of their parts. Asking someone to wear religious clothing just to sit and have a conversation is absurd.

ora_43

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 5:20 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

Are you saying that's an example of an appropriate response? (re: people getting angry at a non-Jewish woman wearing shorts).

saw50st8

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 7:15 am

I'm not a fan of forcing people to conform to your culture, whatever it is.

So in the same way that I accept people will come into my house with varying degrees of covering (no covering, tichels, sheitels, black hats, streimels etc), I expect that likewise, I can show up in the manner of dress and covering that I choose.

I think she was right to refuse the hijab.

wondergirl

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 7:33 am

Chess star refusing to wear a hijab in Iran, banned from playing:

https://www.washingtonpost.com.....58166

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-Ea.....82158

Petition: https://www.change.org/p/stop-.....ision

wondergirl

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 7:35 am

Women set fire to their burkas to celebrate liberation from Isis--

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new.....ebook

wondergirl

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 8:04 am

My Stealthy Freedom- Women fighting for their rights not to wear a hijab:

Raisin

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 8:56 am

I think politicians have to often do things they don't like, for diplomatic reasons. So it is very different then me, say, demanding that my female married guests wear a head covering. (I don't - but most guests are sensitive to the fact they are in a religious house and dress appropriately.)

I don't think Le Pen could ban tichels - they are often worn by cancer patients, as a fashion statement, or to protect from weather. Unlike hijabs, which are generally a religious/cultural garb.

wondergirl

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 9:32 am

American First Ladies and their history with head coverings:

https://carlanthonyonline.com/.....lery/

iluvy

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 9:45 am

I was horrified when Sweden's "feminist government" put on hijabs to visit Iran. I saw it as an unfathomable betrayal of millions of women in Muslim countries to smile and put on a hijab for the man who would have women in his own country murdered for taking them off.

These were politicians, meeting with a politician, and wearing a hijab in that context is an unforgivable political statement. I think it would be appropriate and respectful (though not necessary) for them to wear a hijab to visit a mosque in their own country, for example. But in this case they were showing "respect" for a man and a policy that, as people who call themselves feminists, they had an obligation to publicly challenge.

Iranian women call on Western tourists to violate hijab law to fight against oppression

Ruchel

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 10:46 am

In order to ban veils, she would have to ban other religious garb.

So it would be like 30 years ago when men wore a hat or cap and not a kippa.

Not my cup of tea. Not hysterical either. Not that I think she will win, though strange things happen lately in the world.

(no, she is not going to ban scarves, hats or wigs, see above)

treestump

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 10:48 am

iluvy wrote:

I agree with this.

For those saying she should wear a hijab out of respect - I think diplomatic respect had been violated when men demanded that women wear hijabs at meetings.

wondergirl

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 11:44 am

youngishbear wrote:

When religious needs conflict, we need to look at which side has a stronger case.

If I were told to remove my headcovering to enter a government building (which happened to a friend many years ago), I would choose not to enter. That results in discrimination against me because of my religious beliefs.

If the secular government determined that no one should wear a headcovering when entering a building then why is it discrimination if you cannot do that because of your personal beliefs that you wear a headcovering? Why does the secular governement have an obligation to accommodate you or take your personal beliefs into consideration when making rules that would benefit them?

And if the secular govt does have to accommodate you bc of your personal beliefs then why would it be any different for LePen when she visits a religious group? Why did the religious leaders not accommodate her personal beliefs of not wearing a headscarf and why is that not discrimination against her? If anything they should be a good role model for her and show her what tolerance and acceptance is all about by not forcing their religion onto her.

In fact, it is offensive that they would want to force her to wear their religious garb because it shows a lack of respect to themselves and their relationship to God or Allah. Lets say that the president comes to your house, would you want him to wear a kippah? Many people think that it would be a sign of respect if he does wear a kippah but I disagree. A kipppah is a sign of holiness and connection to Hashem. Our boys go through a whole ceremony to earn the privilege to wear the kippah. We have an upsherin for them (after 3 years of not cutting their hair at all), we wrap them in a tallis so they would remain in kedusha, have them lick honey or eat sweets, etc. It is a big deal for them to get to wear a kippah and forcing strangers to wear one diminishes its value. Why would you want to do that? If anything, teach the boys that we are different and wearing a kippah is an honor reserved only for boys/men who follow the Torah so we want to differentiate between us and others by not forcing anyone else to wear a kippah.

The same with the hijab. It is not easy to wear a hijab and these women sacrifice a lot to wear it, why would they want to diminish its value by forcing strangers, who have no clue why its being worn, to wear them? It is disrespectful to the women who wear it on a daily basis and know why they are wearing it and sacrifice greatly for their right to wear it.

This is the same with all the other religious clothing. Why would you force women to wear skirts or dress a certain way if they come for a visit or work in our organizations? If we dress this way on a daily basis because of our personal beliefs then we are saying that we are different because of our relationship with God. Why would we want to diminish that by forcing strangers to dress like us? And how are we showing tolerance and acceptance if we force other people to wear our religious garb?

HindaRochel

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 12:02 pm

France, where these rules take force, is not like the USA and has a much different approach to secularism than the USA. They are rabidly secularist at the government level. No religious garb is permitted in certain areas, not crosses, not kippot etc.

That is their culture.