Trump’s Wiretapping Claim

Amarante

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 9:53 am

All kidding aside and focusing on what really matters.

We have a President who has stated that he doesn't rely on intelligence sources but acts impulsively on rumors and conspiracy theories. What does this mean in terms of his ability to discern between data that is true and reliable and garbage with no substance. We can be heading down WMD or worse because President Bush II acted on what turned out to be manipulated data.

The other horrifying aspect is that Trump seems unaware that instead of asking intelligence to track down and substantiate a rumor, he immediately tweets it in a fit of pique.

Either he impulsively accused the President Obama of a criminal, if not treasonable act, by not going through the necessary channels.

OR - a valid warrant for a wire tap was obtained by intelligence sources which was signed off by a SPECIAL judge and there was probable cause for Trump to have been engaging in criminal acts.

For those people who are serious readers, I would recommend reading the article in this week's New Yorker by Adam Davidson which meticulously researched and writes about a Trump deal in Azerbajian that appears solely to launder money for Iran's Revolutionary Guard - for the enrichment of Trump's organization.

And this is just one of many deals and took a very skilled reported in the field four months to research

http://www.newyorker.com/magaz.....-deal

An excerpt to tweak your interests. Any financial forensic expert knows that when there are inscrutable large payments that make no economic sense, there a nefarious criminal purpose can generally be assumed because it is this kind of economic deals which are used to launder moneys (either on a small scale by petty criminals) or on a massive scale and used to fund terrorist groups
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Heydar Aliyev Prospekti, a broad avenue in Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan, connects the airport to the city. The road is meant to highlight Baku’s recent modernization, and it is lined with sleek new buildings. The Heydar Aliyev Center, an undulating wave of concrete and glass, was designed by Zaha Hadid. The state oil company is housed in a twisting glass tower, and the headquarters of the state water company looks like a giant water droplet. “It’s like Potemkin,” my translator told me. “It’s only the buildings right next to the road.” Behind the gleaming structures stand decaying Soviet-era apartment blocks, with clothes hanging out of windows and wallboards exposed by fallen brickwork.

As you approach the city center, a tower at the end of the avenue looms in front of you. Thirty-three stories high and curved to resemble a sail, the building was clearly inspired by the Burj Al Arab Hotel, in Dubai, but it is boxier and less elegant. When I visited Baku, in December, five enormous white letters glowed at the top of the tower: T-R-U-M-P.

The building, a five-star hotel and residence called the Trump International Hotel & Tower Baku, has never opened, though from the road it looks ready to welcome the public. Reaching the property is surprisingly difficult; the tower stands amid a welter of on-ramps, off-ramps, and overpasses. During the nine days I was in town, I went to the site half a dozen times, and on each occasion I had a comical exchange with a taxi-driver who had no idea which combination of turns would lead to the building’s entrance.

The more time I spent in the neighborhood, the more I wondered how the hotel could have been imagined as a viable business. The development was conceived, in 2008, as a high-end apartment building. In 2012, after Donald Trump’s company, the Trump Organization, signed multiple contracts with the Azerbaijani developers behind the project, plans were made to transform the tower into an “ultra-luxury property.” According to a Trump Organization press release, a hotel with “expansive guest rooms” would occupy the first thirteen floors; higher stories would feature residences with “spectacular views of the city and Caspian Sea.” For an expensive hotel, the Trump Tower Baku is in an oddly unglamorous location: the underdeveloped eastern end of downtown, which is dominated by train tracks and is miles from the main business district, on the west side of the city. Across the street from the hotel is a discount shopping center; the area is filled with narrow, dingy shops and hookah bars. Other hotels nearby are low-budget options: at the AYF Palace, most rooms are forty-two dollars a night. There are no upscale restaurants or shops. Any guests of the Trump Tower Baku would likely feel marooned.

The timing of the project was also curious. By 2014, when the Trump Organization publicly announced that it was helping to turn the tower into a hotel, a construction boom in Baku had ended, and the occupancy rate for luxury hotels in the city hovered around thirty-five per cent. Jan deRoos, of Cornell University, who is an expert in hotel finance, told me that the developer of a five-star hotel typically must demonstrate that the project will maintain an average occupancy rate of at least sixty per cent for ten years. There is a long-term master plan to develop the area around the Trump Tower Baku, but if it is implemented the hotel will be surrounded for years by noisy construction projects, making it even less appealing to travellers desiring a luxurious experience—especially considering that there are many established hotels on the city’s seaside promenade. There, an executive from ExxonMobil or the Israeli cell-phone industry can stay at the Four Seasons, which occupies a limestone building that evokes a French colonial palace, or at the J. W. Marriott Abershon Baku, which has an outdoor terrace overlooking the water. Tiffany, Ralph Lauren, and Armani are among the dozens of companies that have boutiques along the promenade.

A former top official in Azerbaijan’s Ministry of Tourism says that, when he learned of the Trump hotel project, he asked himself, “Why would someone put a luxury hotel there? Nobody who can afford to stay there would want to be in that neighborhood.”

The Azerbaijanis behind the project were close relatives of Ziya Mammadov, the Transportation Minister and one of the country’s wealthiest and most powerful oligarchs. According to the Transparency International Corruption Perception Index, Azerbaijan is among the most corrupt nations in the world. Its President, Ilham Aliyev, the son of the former President Heydar Aliyev, recently appointed his wife to be Vice-President. Ziya Mammadov became the Transportation Minister in 2002, around the time that the regime began receiving enormous profits from government-owned oil reserves in the Caspian Sea. At the time of the hotel deal, Mammadov, a career government official, had a salary of about twelve thousand dollars, but he was a billionaire.

PinkFridge

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 10:13 am

Tweet from President Obama: See you in court for libel, Donny.
(Seriously, either it's true or it isn't. And either way is potentially explosive.)

Jeanette

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 12:17 pm

Squishy wrote:

Are you sure?

A Rabbi, I know, summed it up. He is meshuganah, but he is what we need now.

I can't imagine even his closest supporters don't see something.

I still support many of his platforms.

According to a new poll conducted by Investor’s Business Daily and TechnoMetrica Market Intelligence, 51 percent of voters approve of the president’s decision to temporarily restrict citizens from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen from entering the country, while 42 percent of Hispanics who were surveyed also approved.

According to a CNN poll, 65% of Americans support a special prosecutor to investigate trump Russia ties. Are you okay with that?

Look, it's very possible there's nothing to the allegations. I'm open to that possibility. Maybe there was zero collusion and whatever Russia did or didn't do had only a minor inconsequential effect on the election. Whats concerning is the lying coming out of the white house and Trump's constant efforts to either change the subject or point the finger of blame in some other direction. Just let the investigation go forward. Let everyone see there's nothing there and put it all behind you.

Jeanette

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 12:23 pm

Double post.

Fox

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 5:09 pm

Amazing! I really should apply to Navi School!

I predicted back on page 1 of this thread that the conversation would quickly be redirected to any and all other complaints about Trump. Lo and behold, we've moved from discussing Obama's use of surveillance against political opponents to the cost of keeping Melanie and Barron in NYC and possible malfeasance in Eastern Europe.

Since I'm currently perched on a stool in a Midtown Starbucks while my son peruses B & H Photo, I'm not going to put in extensive links. It wouldn't do any good, anyway; no one is disputing the existence if the FISA court warrant requests or the irregularity of using FISA to investigate potential financial crimes.

This is about the Obama administration, not Trump.

Given the pattern that seems to be emerging from the Vault 7 leaks, spying on Trump's campaign seems mundane and almost benign.

SixOfWands

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 5:36 pm

Fox wrote:

No. Its about Trump trying to deflect attention from his own scandals, particularly related to Russia, to his fantasy about Obama ordering wiretaps of Trump Tower without judicial approval. He hasn't cited any evidence, of course. But let's spend millions investigating. And forget all about Russia hacking the election, and communications between Russia and Trump's advisors, and perjury at confirmation hearings. Because none of those are important.

But I don't have much time. I need to start preparing for the holiday where we talk about how our immigrant forefathers who worked longer and harder for less. But they too had a dream that one day their sons, daughters, grandsons, granddaughters, great-grandsons, great-granddaughters, might pursue prosperity and happiness in Egypt.

sourstix

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 6:07 pm

To fox and anyone out there that has an incline that any president has a power to tell FBI or IRS or fisa to investigate someone ? No he cannot.

It's all about trump. They guy has no idea how the government works. Nor does he even want to know. He's dangerous! I wish they find away to impeach him. And no I did not vote this time.

Fox

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 6:54 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

No. Its about Trump trying to deflect attention from his own scandals, particularly related to Russia, to his fantasy about Obama ordering wiretaps of Trump Tower without judicial approval.

Well, that's certainly news to the NY Times. Remember, they're the ones who broke the story.

I'm still waiting for an explanation -- any explanation -- of the irregular use of FISA and the apparent lack of evidence the warrants generated. So far, the only explanation I'm hearing is, "Trump is awful! Why can't you understand how awful he is?"

Not sure why you're claiming there's no evidence; are you saying the FISA warrants are made up?

Trump may be every bit as awful as you claim, but I'm not sure how that justifies what is rapidly emerging about the CIA and surveillance under the Obama administration.

sourstix

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 7:16 pm

Trump believes in conspiracy theories. He doesn't go by facts. That's why he's so off. Has no clue of what he's talking about. No fisa cannot be ordered by a president. It's the law.

Miri7

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 7:31 pm

I've been out of the news loop today. Did Trump say he has evidence that Obama obtains a FISA warrant to tap Trump or campaign phones?

I thought the WH was asking that the FBI investigate if there were such taps, meaning that the WH does not have proof they existed.

MagentaYenta

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 7:40 pm

Miri7 wrote:

Yea they also asked for an investigation of voter fraud, but the congress critters don't seem to be toeing the line for their new president.

Jeanette

Tue, Mar 07 2017, 7:51 pm

Fox wrote:

OMG did someone say leaks??? We must investigate these illegal leakers immediately! Deep state! Constitutional crisis!!!11!!1!1@1

33055

Wed, Mar 08 2017, 7:17 am

Jeanette wrote:

That same poll says 55% of the people approve of DT's economic policies. I am one of them especially as I am benefiting monetarily. Clinton's successful presidential campaign - The economy, stupid. The unsuccessful Clinton ignored his advice and lost the election.

https://www.google.com/amp/www......html

Jeanette

Wed, Mar 08 2017, 9:01 am

Squishy wrote:

That's nice but you're changing the subject.

33055

Wed, Mar 08 2017, 9:33 am

Jeanette wrote:

That's nice but you're changing the subject.

You brought up the poll. Why didn't CNN scream approval of the economy? Why bury it?

A special prosecutor to measure the size of the inaugural crowds or whether Trump is afraid of steps is just as interesting as yet another probe into Russian ties. It is as interesting as the fact Trump orders his steak well done with ketchup.

Trump is great for the economy. Trump is great for me. The Dow broke 21,000 last week. Obama suffocated business.

http://nypost.com/2017/03/07/t.....tion/

SixOfWands

Wed, Mar 08 2017, 9:56 am

Fox wrote:

The NY Times had a story stating that Obama ordered illegal wiretaps of Trump Tower? Can you provide a link?

Because I've never seen such a story, and the NY Times is adamant that no such story exists.

Hint: stories involving wiretaps, or intelligence gained from wiretaps, don't mean that Obama illegally tapped Trump's phones.

From the NY Times:

Quote:

Ms. Sanders said that wiretapping had been widely reported

“This is a story line that has been reported pretty widely by quite a few outlets. The wiretapping has been discussed in The New York Times, BBC, Fox News.”

This is misleading. The White House forwarded The New York Times several articles about investigations into the Trump campaign’s ties to Russia that include the word “wiretapping.” None contend, as Mr. Trump did, that Mr. Obama personally ordered the surveillance of Trump Tower phones.

The BBC reported, based on anonymous sources, that intelligence agencies obtained a FISA warrant in October 2016 to intercept electronic records from two Russian banks. HeatStreet, a libertarian-leaning blog, also cited unnamed sources claiming that the warrant covered a computer server at Trump Tower. Neither claimed Mr. Obama was responsible.

The White House also cited two Times articles, one about the National Security Agency’s expanded authority to share its data and the other on the continuing investigation into links between Mr. Trump’s associates and Russian officials. Neither article claimed that Mr. Trump or his associates were the target of wiretapping.

ETA --

(1) We have no idea if there were warrants, and if so, what evidence was gathered. But not every warrant results in prosecutable evidence. Benghazi. Millions spent, over what. Whitewater. Ditto. Shall I continue?

(2) But Trump has succeeded. Again. He's stopped the conversation about Russia. And about his golf weekends. And about his tax returns. And about how he's receiving profits from foreign governments. He's freaking brilliant. And everyone falls for it.

33055

Wed, Mar 08 2017, 10:35 am

SixOfWands wrote:

1) Benghazi led to Hillary's personal server and personal email account. Whitewater led to Bill's perjury accusations and impeachment.

2) ITA He is brilliant, and the economy is humming.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new.....month

I agree that a lot of BT Trump is great showmanship.

Jeanette

Wed, Mar 08 2017, 11:05 am

Squishy wrote:

The title of this thread is "Trump's wiretapping claims," not "Trump's effect on the economy," so that's what I'm going to focus on in this thread.

Are you concerned about how he's handling the Russia investigation? I am, and so are many other Americans. I think it's too early to tell how his policies will affect the economy long term.

33055

Wed, Mar 08 2017, 11:36 am

Jeanette wrote:

I'm sorry. I didn't realize this was a private discussion and only this particular thread couldn't deviate. I didn't realize free speech was being stifled here. Can you kindly have Yael amend the rules?

I entered this thread responding to this post of yours.

Jeanette wrote:

I have no issue with that. It's the people who won't even entertain a question who concern me.

You opened the door to the discussion on the economy by citing a poll that supported Trump's handling of the economy.

I then responded to 6ofW's post mentioning a couple of Clinton scandals and stating there was no prosecutorial evidence. I pointed out how those investigations led to bigger scandals.

I agree with 6ofW on what the times said. I was going to answer that until I read her post. I have nothing to add to that part of the post, but why is isn't her speech stifled? She discussed other things.

I happen to agree that Trump is a showman, but all these scandals must be placed in prospective. He is good for the economy.

BTW the market is an excellent leading indicator of expansions, so it is predicting beyond today. (It doesn't have the same record of contractions.)

SixOfWands

Wed, Mar 08 2017, 12:03 pm

Squishy wrote:

1) Benghazi led to Hillary's personal server and personal email account. Whitewater led to Bill's perjury accusations and impeachment.

The Whitewater investigation took 4-1/2 years and cost US taxpayers nearly $40 million. It found no evidence whatsoever of wrongdoing. After all that time, however, they found out that Bill Clinton got a blow job, which he lied about. $40 million over a blow job. Give me a couple of hundred, and I'll prove that Trump has had a few outside the bounds of his marriage.

Benghazi cost us $20 million. Again, no criminal action was found. But it did lead to the completely unrelated, and equally non-actionable, use of a private email server. But since you raised it, I'm certain you're going to condemn Pence, and call for him to be thrown in jail. Maybe he can share a cell with Colin Powell, who also used a personal computer attached to a private phone line to do business with foreign leaders and State Department officials. Or not.

One of Trump's "huge" cost saving proposals is to eliminate the Minority Business Development Agency. Annual cost, $36 million. We could fund it if we hadn't wasted that money.

Squishy wrote:

2) ITA He is brilliant, and the economy is humming.

Except nothing he has done, or proposes, has taken effect. Nothing. Any economic changes are speculative. Or Obama.

Again, its all obfuscation.