This is for all you anti-feminists.

marina

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 4:00 pm

Fox wrote:

On the contrary, I believe we desperately need feminism.

Women in many parts of the world still desperately need equity feminism.

Women in the Western world desperately need to live in a world in which femininity is validated rather than seen as a cute add-on to more serious masculine characteristics.

Men in the Western world desperately need to live in a world in which their masculinity is affirmed rather than shamed.

If the contemporary feminist movement were really addressing any of those problems, I'd don a pink hat and hit the streets.

Instead, feminists are giving us intersectionality; poststructuralism; bickering over privilege and whether white women should be allowed to wear hoop earrings; and fluid gender identity. If you think I'm exaggerating, I would suggest following New Real Peer Review (@real_peerreview) on Twitter, which documents emerging feminist scholarship (among other things).

Most importantly, feminism is not teaching men to value women more. Like the Australian boys, they understand the basics of equity feminism. But they have little idea of how to channel their natural instincts to protect and care for women. They can't articulate what femininity brings to the world that is unique.

Oh, we definitely need feminism -- just not the feminism we've got.

This whole thing is like me saying:

Orthodox Judaism! Well sure we need Orthodox Judaism, but not the one we have! Orthodox Judaism is intolerant and divisive! It allows for child molestation and educational ignorance! Its scholars argue about whether smart phones should be allowed! They bicker over whether women should cover their hair with wigs or kerchiefs! Orthodox Judaism marginalizes women to the extent that they can't even drive!

Sure we need orthodox judaism, just not the kind we have!!!!!

See? It's called painting with a broad brush, stereotyping, using the fringe to represent the whole, etc.

Last edited by marina on Mon, Mar 13 2017, 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 4:06 pm

zohar wrote:

I'm going to respond to your bullets in order.
1.I don't find that to be a problem for the most part in frum society. People are very understanding of nursing mothers, maybe even more so than in secular society. Also, comfortable is relative.
2. Obviously. It definitely not a condoned behavior in frum society, (some would call it nivul peh). Not to say that there aren't jerks here too.
3. Does not apply here today, although I do think that if feminists we sincere, they would protest voting laws in many M.E. countries.
4. Personally, I don't think that shaving is a feminist issue (as in stemming from disrespect of woman), although I can understand others disagreeing with me. A husband should be supportive of these things, but there is a lot that comes with flouting the rules of the community, and if he is having a hard time, it does not mean he is a mysoginist. It has to be something solved as a couple. I do think the driving thing has to be addressed, but not as a feminist issue. I actually think that the move to the right on this issue is to be able to not accept the more "modern" crowd, but I believe that the large majority of ppl actually don't have a problem with women driving and would actually prefer it especially from a practicality perspective.
4. The reason single girls are paid less than men with families has much to do with experience. However, we still see this disparity with married mothers too. This has largely to do with the choices both parties are making. Take me for example. I work for a frum company. I could get a much larger salary if I worked for a large secular firm, but I choose to work here because my boss understands three Jewish calendar and understands that since he doesn't pay me like my husband gets paid, when one of us had to take off, it's going to be me. Like today for example. And when there is a sick child. To some extent, it's capitalism at play, and there are some who take advantage, but it's coming from the bottom line, financially, and not because they value women less. Also apply and demand, (teachers vs. Rebbeim).

Look I don't know if this is willful ignorance or if you just don't have enough experience. Women in Crown Heights don't vote in their community elections. Single girls in many frum places get paid less because the man with a family has a family so they pay him more.

But look if you want to pretend that orthodox Judaism has evolved to the point where no feminism is needed, go right ahead.

I haven't even mentioned erasing women from magazines.... lol whatever

Ruchel

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 4:09 pm

I'm for not being a jerk. And equal pay for equal capacity. It may be feminist, but except from the new wave type feminists who embrace motherhood and femininity, I don't relate to the classic feminists apart from the aforementioned don't be a jerk, equal pay for equal capacity.

Feminists I like are rebbetzin Jungreis (she called herself not a feminist and wrote a booklet against it but she was a learned lady doing speeches in mixed crowds and handling a huge enterprise), or non Jews like The Feminist Breeder.

I grew up with a sahD, a mom with a very high job, and a very healthy sense that chores belong to the one who can/wants to do them. My kah above 90 year old grandfather still carries the groceries and doesn't want my grandmother cleaning up the mess he makes. I'm just back from a mishte were a lot of the homemade stuff was cooked by the husband, who happens to be a black kippa rabbi. One of the couples was late because the husband got badly stained feeding the kids and had to change and had to put together a new costume of sorts. I'll never forget when we visited a friend of my husband who lived in a circle I had many stereotypes on. I got along extremely well with his wife and we started chatting away. Before we knew it, he set the table and served the food helped by my husband rofl. Feminism isn't really a debate here, just common sense.

I have no desire to be in circles where I have to show or prove anything, be it that I am not "just a mom", or that I can read the megilla.

Lehavdil I won't even mention the pro abortion crazies and the "feminists" who spit on Catholic women but defend the shariaH when they would be the first hanged.

Fox

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 4:36 pm

marina wrote:

See? It's called painting with a broad brush, stereotyping, using the fringe to represent the whole, etc.

Let's review the chronology of the discussion:

1. You posted a video advocating for equity feminism plus treating women nicely.

2. Several people, including me, pointed out that contemporary feminism includes key elements that we find problematic -- namely, deconstructionism and intersectionality. I brought evidence of this in the form of Sommers's and Paglia's critique. I also mentioned a Twitter feed where those interested could see the theories and scholarship that underpin contemporary feminism.

3. You and Magenta Amother argue that I am using extreme elements to represent mainstream feminism -- despite my evidence to the contrary.

I can find no serious writers, scholars, or speakers who don't consider deconstructionism and intersectionality to be part and parcel of authentic feminism today. Claiming that these are not integral elements of contemporary feminism seems to me to be wishful thinking: what you ideally would like feminism to represent rather than what it really is.

PinkFridge

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 4:40 pm

marina wrote:

The first one? A guy deciding that a woman wants to have seks with him? Have you read any of the threads here about women who were taught not to say no and don't really want to but they do anyway? And that's not even about the women who describe full rape.

I really don't understand what you're saying. Catcalling is disrespecting women and feminism educates people to respect women. And maybe fathers don't talk to their girls like that in the frum world generally, but yes, guys may easily adopt that approach.

Disclaimer: I haven't seen the clip yet. But I have to remember this line next time someone talks favorably about the frum world in a way that raises hackles, "as if secular/gentile/etc. people don't also do" xy or z.

Fox

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 5:16 pm

iluvy wrote:

Fox, you are talking about a phenomenon, academic and political feminism, that happens to be polysemous with what you call equity feminism. Bringing up Judith Butler and the cultural appropriation of hoop earrings in this context is a category error.

Which brings us back to my original point: much of what I'm hearing is women defining feminism for themselves and then attempting to persuade others to define it similarly.

To me, this seems like a trick: "I'm going to define feminism for myself -- leaving out elements that might be controversial or problematic -- and then condemn you for not considering yourself a feminist."

ora_43

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 5:19 pm

marina wrote:

And if you want to define feminism in the most narrow way possible, sure - many of us aren't feminists. Just like if being on the derech is defined as narrowly as possible, many of us are completely OTD.

If you don't want to define feminism in the most narrow way possible, who are the "all you anti-feminists" you're addressing? Is there a widespread trend on imamother of women opposing basic feminist precepts like "maybe don't tell your daughter she's fat and hideous" or "s-xual assault is bad"?

Tablepoetry

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 5:25 pm

Fox wrote:

Okay, so you're saying that deconstructionism and intersectionality are not key components of contemporary feminism? According to whom?

Believe me, the right wing didn't make up Judith Butler!

Ok, I am not an academic.
But I think deconstruction has filtered into almost every sphere of contemporary life. Of course it's part of contemporary feminism; it's a part of everything else too. I would think it's already passe though - it was strong a few decades ago.
As for intersectionality - I'm not sure what the issue or the big objection is? Again, as a lay person, intersectionality simply means to me that we are all multi-layered and that our identities can intersect and even conflict. I certainly feel that tension/conflict as an Orthodox Jewish woman.
Intersectionality sounds to me like common sense, nothing controversial.
Most people aren't taking their cues from esoteric college magazines. I have no idea what's going on there, but I am proud to call myself a feminist. I have no problem with the fact it's a multi-faceted definition and means different things to different people.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 5:27 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I don't know about her, but I personally am rather bewildered when people embrace basic feminist precepts but are vehemently disgusted by the word 'feminist'. The teachers and educators and rabbis at my dds' school utter the word like it's a curse word, half spitting it.

ora_43

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 5:28 pm

Also, I don't like the video. This is exactly the type of "feminism" that bothers me - the "look at all the many ways that women are victimized (and no, we won't be taking a balanced look at the actual data, where would the drama be in that?)" feminism.

I'm not saying we should deny the ways women are victimized, chv"s. But, thinking as a mother here - what message would I be sending my daughter, if I showed her this video with its third-hand body shaming? or if I tell her that one in four women is raped if they go to college?

I want her to be confident in her abilities, not to terrify her with horror stories of how society will judge her looks and ignore her opinions.

Can we not have a strong feminist message that isn't all about how terrible it is to be a girl?

Fox

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 5:35 pm

marina wrote:

I haven't even mentioned erasing women from magazines.... lol whatever

This is an excellent example of where I believe feminism fails.

I happen to have very conflicted thoughts on the practice of not including pictures of women in Jewish magazines. I understand the underlying concept, but I also believe it has many negative unintended consequences.

However, I don't think it can be viewed exclusively in Marxist terms: another example of the exploiter and the oppressed.

In fact, I find that viewing the issue in dialectical terms is not only misleading, it leaves out a lot from all perspectives. For example, how do we relate the concept of "male gaze" to pictures? How do challenge our ideas of s-xual desirability? Can privacy exist without denying agency?

Good luck thinking out loud about any of these questions on Imamother or elsewhere.

Self-defined feminists have decided that magazines without pictures of women are on one side of the "struggle" and the betterment of women is on the other. Try saying that maybe, just maybe, the picture issue requires more thought than a quick label of "sexist." You'll be laughed at and get plenty of rolling-eye emoticons. After all, the application of Marxist theory to frum magazines doesn't allow for messy motivations or conflicted history.

Many people believe that women should not be allowed to decide for themselves what is good, bad, right, or wrong. When these people are men, they are sexists. When these people are women, they are feminists.

DrMom

Mon, Mar 13 2017, 5:42 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

Intersectionality, as applied in modern academia, usually translates into: If you support one left-wing causes (such as third wave feminism), then you must support other left-wing causes (like BLM or the BDS movement) because all "isms" and "phobias" are related and we are all oppressed by the cis-normative white patriarchy and we oppressed non-privileged groups must stick together.

It's all the rage (quite literally sometimes) on college campuses.

I would describe myself as a feminist in that I believe in equal pay for equal work, in not arbitrarily closing off opportunities to women, etc. I don't have a problem with halachically acceptable ways to include women in more aspects of religious practice.

I would not identify myself as a feminist in academic circles without qualifying/defining first, lest anyone think I support the Third Wave feminism which is the standard in contemporary academia.

Last edited by DrMom on Mon, Mar 13 2017, 5:44 pm; edited 2 times in total