Single girl out with friends until 1AM- is this appropriate?

FranticFrummie

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 3:54 am

If she's only hanging out with other girls, then I don't see a problem. What about the shidduchim of her friends? Are they worried about being seen?

If she was hanging out in mixed company and flirting, then maybe you should have a talk with her. Otherwise, just let her be. She's over 18!

amother

Salmon

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 3:59 am

amother wrote:

She goes out to pizza or a coffee shop with her friends at night sometimes. She is not the type to do anything bad I am just worried that others might not see her as a good girl if she is out so late at night.

Deciding what is right based on what other people think is usually a bad idea.

enter

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 4:48 am

I used to be out that late with my girlfriends too. Sometimes we'd just chat on the corner or walk the streets, go for a drive or a hotel lobby, go shopping or bowling. We weren't innocent, which just aided us in keeping safe and responsible. I'd still get up on time for work the next day, and my friends did the same. We were just young adults enjoying our friendship and the peacefulness of the late hours. We just chilled, relaxed, unwinded from the day, sometimes heartfelt talks (work, dating, Judaism, aspirations, emotions, you name it) and other times it was just chill. Friends help you understand yourself better. I understand there's a shidduch fear, truth is, it's difficult for any parent watching their child get older (I saw it with my parents) but I just want to point out that so long as it's "kosher" I'd say you really have nothing to fear. In my experience, that's just what many single young woman do.

I hope she finds the right one soon.

imasinger

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 6:27 am

Is it fair to expect singles not to hang out late at night at a pizza shop with their friends once in a while, just because some busybody might not like it?

Frankly, the kind of people that would raise an eyebrow at that aren't the people I'd want my DD to be connected to in a shidduch.

As Greenfire points out, if it's affecting her ability to handle her responsibilities the next day, that's a different question.

treestump

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 6:37 am

amother wrote:

Firstly, I can assure you there are many single women doing the same thing. No one worthy of your time would deem that inappropriate.

Secondly, if she is 23, she is a grown woman, and it is her choice to make. You wouldn't write, My 23 year old daughter/sister is out with her husband until 1 AM - is this appropriate? I'm worried people will think it's inappropriate and her child won't get into school.
Please grant this woman the same autonomy and respect for her perfectly kosher choices as you would for someone her age who is married.

amother

Beige

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 8:00 am

amother wrote:

She is 23 years old and I know it's not such a big deal but I am scared that if people see her out until 1 or 2AM then it's not going to be good for shidduchim because people will think she is not a good girl.

TBH I think maybe we should live in a world of "other ppl will say other ppl will see etc" with shidduchim.
I was treated that way. I'm recovering. Slowly. And my DH was NOT raised this way, and every time another example comes up.. ex : don't go to Starbucks your in shidduchim.. he can't wrap hishead around it.
Yes, you can act as if you're on a pedestal TO SOME EXTENT but live and let live.
Hanging out with friends IS a normal thing. What should they do, stay at home and cry to their pillows?

Pls don't take this the wrong way. Just my 3 cents

amother

Beige

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 8:03 am

Ilovemaryland wrote:

I tend to agree with you.. Is she at a Chasana or vort with close friends , or hanging out at a pizza shop or Dunkin Donuts

U don't have to be at a wedding or vort, u can be hanging out at a friend's baking chocolate chip cookies or dancing or a variety of other activities that are healthy activities for single girls

amother

Beige

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 8:04 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

Think for a minute. What does it say about the folks who see her while she is out? What were they doing out so late? Why weren't Moishe and Yankel home with their pregnant wives? Why was Irena and Mina out so late and not home with their husbands and families? At some point someone has to opt out of this paranoia game and yield to rational thought.

This!

amother

Beige

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 8:12 am

I feel like this feeds a society where there are so many fake good girls and boys.. they put on a show for shidduchim.
But did u ever think abt what happens after that? So they marry another good girl/boy, they still have to live together, and being fake for shidduchim can lead to many unnecessary shalom bayis issues if they were just true to themselves to begin with instead if being a "good girl/boy"life doesn't end when u "finally" get engaged. It's just the beginning. And it should be the beginning of a beautiful life.
Why not be yourself?

watergirl

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 8:21 am

amother wrote:

Yes! Sooo many issues with these fronts people put on. Even when forced to do so. Then we have young marrieds crying that their shiny new husband/wife isnt the same person that they met/dated and changed as soon as the glass was broken.

I'm also saddened (not not shocked) that op uses "girl" to describe her 23 year old daughter. I imagine the young woman still lives at her parents house. Isn't that hard enough for her to deal with at this age? 23 is still quite young, but I assume that many of her friends are already married and have children. Wife for their limit the things that she's allowed to do? Let her make her own decisions and deal with the consequences, whatever they may be. She is a grown up. Leave her be. Dont make this any harder than it is already! Dating is a hard time for many. Why make her bitter and resentful?

simcha2

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 8:26 am

In general living one's life (or parenting) by the mantra of, "what will others think" is so unhealthy. We want our children to do what is right (halachically, morally, for themselves) even when they think no one is watching.

At 23 your daughter is raised, let her stand and make her own decisions. (It will be good practice for when she, PG, is married and has her own children).

zaq

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 9:20 am

Oh, my, hanging out at pizza shops and coffee shops with her girlfriends! Shut my mouth, how scandalous! (Sarcasm alert.)

Are the shops tref?
Are her friends of questionable reputation for any reason other than that they are hanging out in coffee and pizza shops till the wee hours?
Has anyone reported to you, or have you seen, any evidence of questionable activity on your dd's part?
Does she appear to be under the influence of chemical substances including but not limited to alcohol, tobacco and drugs when she comes home or the next morning?
Are her late nights adversely affecting her ability to function at her job, school or at home?
Have you observed any deterioration in her personal habits, frumkeit, or relationship with you or the rest of her family?
Has she become unreliable?
Is she secretive about where she goes, when she plans to be back, and whom she's meeting?
Is she going out every night and never home?

If the answers to the above questions are no, what are you worried about? Do you really want your dd to marry into a family that would condemn her as a slut because as a young single adult with some free time, she chose to spend it with her peers in a public place? The type of public place, furthermore, that tends to be more of a family-friendly "safe haven" than anything else? It's a coffee shop, not a bar. She and her friends are twenty-three, not eight. Pajama parties at their respective parents' houses and nine o'clock curfews are no longer quite appropriate.

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 10:00 am

She is a grown woman - however - if you are responsible to find her a husband, then in some ways she is still a girl - and I can understand feeling like you need her to 'do the right things' to make your job (of finding her a husband) easier!

I'm not in your circles - so I can't speak to whether hanging out at 1am would be a hindrance to finding a shidduch.

amother

Cyan

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 10:03 am

I am married to a man who grew up with OMG what will other ppl think.
My MIL has a constant stream of criticism about my children because they aren't "just so."

Its hell. I think about divorce, suicide, g-d knows what almost every day. It is soul crushing. Let it go.

amother

Natural

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 10:13 am

When the right one will come along, he won't care that she was with her friends at the coffee shop with her friends.
It is a shame that us mothers of girls have such pressure to make shidduchim for our daughters and marry them off. They have to have their hair and makeup just to get a container of milk and have to be dressed up to the hilt at all times. The shaddchanim want pictures of the girl and what size is she? The whole scene makes me vomit.
The young lady is 23 years old! I think it is a good thing that she has good friends and is having a good time. It's healthy! Sheesh, is everything ossur nowadays?

amother

Jetblack

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 10:14 am

IF she were 17, 18, or 19 and she wasn't able to deal with school/work/responsibilities in the morning, OR she wasn't being safe (which to me means - being secretive about where she was, when she'd be home, or who she was with, or taking risks in getting home or in her location ie walking or taking a taxi home alone, not being familiar with the neighborhood, etc) then I'd say, as her parent and guardian and as the person bankrolling her life, you'd get to have some say about when and how the late night socializing happens.

Anything over 20, if she's still at home, unless her behavior significantly impacts the running of your home - you can't rely on her to do things you've agreed on, she's demanding money, she's impaired in the morning, etc etc, you get no say. ESPECIALLY if the community you are part of demands that an unmarried young woman live at home, not have much in the way of earning potential, and essentially expected to stay a "girl" until marriage. Staying out late, even if it's at a coffee shop or pizza place, especially if it's not hampering her responsibilities, IS NOT inappropriate behavior for an adult. I don't think you even have a right to know where she is at that age, although it would be courteous for her to tell you when she'll be home.

dancingqueen

Tue, Apr 25 2017, 11:43 am

Different world alert: 1 AM is not late at night to hang out for your average college kid. This is why I can't imagine grown adults living at home. She should be having fun before she settles down to marriage and kids, especially since her fun sounds very wholesome. And oy at the suggestion that she stay home and bake cookies lol.