Is my cleaning help too excessive?

SixOfWands

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 1:54 pm

lfab wrote:

2 hours per week x $12 per hour adds up to almost $100 per month. Cut 3 hours and it's nearly $150 per month. Over the course of a full year it adds up. Is it tons of money? No. But it's not so little either.

And if the OP is 30, and invests just that money each year in a retirement fund, she would have about $135,000 at age 65.

Should she cut the hours? I don't know. It seems like a lot of help to me for someone who doesn't work outside the home, but who knows how big the house is, and what other issues there are.

amother

Aqua

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 2:08 pm

I am the one that posted about not trusting cleaning ladies with our children. And surprise! I am a geyores myself! So don't expect me to apologize.

There are many wonderful gentiles, many of them even truly righteous, but that doesn't mean we just hand over our children to be babysat by them!

And yes, there are stories of Jewish mothers walking into a room and finding their children kneeling to pray by their bedsides before going to sleep -- because the cleaning lady taught them to.

There was a story in a Jewish community a couple years ago about a cleaning lady being left to babysit -- someone they trusted for TEN YEARS -- that kidnapped a baby. Chaverim caught up to her at the train station, BH.

Of course, not all Jews are trustworthy, but we hope and pray and look out for red flags before letting ANYONE be alone with our children.

In the case of non-Jews though, chazal instituted rules, like not eating together with a [gentile] at the same table in order to keep a certain distance between the Jew and non-Jew -- not because one is "better" than the other, but because over familiarity leads to a sharing of mentalities, and a meshing of values. Our hearts and minds need to be focused on Judaism, not non-Judaism.

You can disagree and shout and yell all you want, but there is absolutely no "[gentile] bashing" in that mentality. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with different belief systems.

pesek zman

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 2:21 pm

amother wrote:

Why don't you start your own thread to discuss this. The OP is asking whether she could cut back her hours, not if she should be employing Gentiles in her home. You responses are hijacking the thread

ora_43

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 2:23 pm

It's really up to you, OP. It sounds reasonable to me, in the sense of, a house with 4 little kids definitely needs at least that much upkeep, and it would be a lot for just one adult to do the entire job herself (and work, and care for the kids!).

The questions I'd ask myself in that situation are:

- do I have the money for this? Not just the money in hand today, but like - can I afford not to put this away for retirement/bat mitzvahs/etc?

- is this saving me money by letting me build my career? (Saving money by cutting cleaning help only helps if you don't end up cutting work hours or missing career opportunities for the sake of a clean floor.)

- how important is it that the house be that clean? (are we talking mopping a sticky disgusting floor, or dusting twice a week?)

- could the kids be helping more (obviously within a reasonable amount of chores for their ages)?

- would I rather do my job, than this? Because I'm totally OK with giving a cleaning lady more than I earn per hour, if I'm getting that hourly pay doing something I enjoy more than mopping.

amother

Violet

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 3:22 pm

amother wrote:

I think you're an amazing woman for leaving your life behind and becoming one of us. Your strong emunah and love of Torah shines through in your posts - I hope I reach there one day as well.

tichellady

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 3:26 pm

amother wrote:

Here's the thing: Chazal never made a rule about non Jews working in Jewish homes . There is no need to add extra stringencies to the rules they made.

amother

Aqua

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 4:16 pm

1. Moshe was raised by Basya, a geyores in Paroah's palace. He had a Jewish surrogate mother there, as well as his own birth mother that nursed him as a child and spent his formative years with him around the clock.

2. Paroah obviously didn't care much about Moshe as he later tried to kill him. I think we can infer that they didn't have too much close contact. And again, he TRIED TO KILL HIM. 'Nuff said.

3. Do you believe it safe to assume that every Jewish child has the same kochos as Moshe Rabenu, who even as infant would not nurse from a non-Jewish woman and whose birth filled the room with light?

4. Chazal never needed to prohibit mothers from leaving their children with non Jews, because throughout the ages it was unthinkable. Leave your kid with a mitzri? A non-Jew in the era of crusaders? In the era of the nazis? During the inquistion? Historically, Jews have been treated like scum, and we knew to "watch our backs" leaving us more alert than in our present day situation in which we are trusting and comfortable.

And just to let you know, I went to school with many non Jews, and though they appeared pleasant to Jews in public, behind their backs they cursed them. Again, NOT AT ALL NON JEWS HATE JEWS and not all non Jews are out "to get" Jews or convert them, and of course, if someone is shlucha or something, their situation may require a non Jewish nanny, but for a regular person living in a heavily Jewish community, where's the sechel?

tichellady

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 4:25 pm

amother wrote:

#4 is a great simplification of Jewish history. If you learn medieval Jewish history it is clear that Non Jews were servants in Jewish homes and poor Jews were servants in gentile homes and yes this applies to the era of the crusades, and pre nazi Europe. I live in a heavily Jewish community and I don't know anyone who has a Jewish nanny. I'm sure people would be open to hiring one, but I don't know of any Jewish women in the community who are interested.

amother

Oak

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 4:55 pm

I don't understand what the question is if it seems as if you are asking for people just to tell you that you are doing the right thing.

I do believe cleaning help is a luxury, in that a single parent who works 3 jobs just to put food on the table and barely sees their children could probably desperately use the cleaning help but there are so many other things that come first. It's a luxury that many people can either afford or budget for, and it makes their lives much easier and calmer, and more power to them!

If, however, there is even the slightest concern that financial problems will occur (family assistance drying up, etc.) if she is employed, then I would say it's a luxury one can ill afford, so either cut her out, cut back her hours, or cut something else out of your lives so you can better afford her.

Personally, I have the same number of children as you. Very similar ages. We run a center so have a very large building (think public restrooms). We have anywhere from 1-5 hours of cleaning help once a week. It is very expensive so we really try to use it sparingly. We all chip in- husband does just as much housework as I do, and the kids have chores and are given greater responsibilities as they grow older. I value a clean and organized house and although I don't love cleaning, that's what it takes for all of us to live together in harmony. I'm very thankful to the cleaning help that we do have for freshening up the public area because that would be difficult to maintain while both holding down full time jobs. My 6 year old is very good at cleaning the bathroom and asks to do it. It's all a matter of presentation.

Good luck in whatever you decide!

amother

Coral

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 5:48 pm

I would just like to advise aqua that the one time I came home to find babies and sitter gone, no note, no nothing, in pre-cell phone days-, it was my frum sitter who took the kids out, met a friend and went somewhere, and stayed hanging out two hours past the time that I was supposed to be back from work. My gentile sitter wouldn't take them to the room next door without permission, much less disappear for hours without letting me know.

Then there was the other frum sitter who went into my personal closet, took out a toy and gave it to my kids to play with. That toy was meant for a gift for someone else, but even if it were for my kids, what the HECK is she doing in my closet and how dare she take stuff out of it?

Another time she showed up four hours late, claiming she had been doing a mitzvah. I told her she can do mitzvos on her own time, not on mine.

Then there was the one, also frum, who possibly trefed up a pot. I came home to find a fleishik pot --wet and dirty,no less--hidden in a corner of the milchik cabinet. She didn't fess up till I asked her about it.

That one would put my kid in a stroller, go to her house and do housework or cook while my kid sat in the stroller.

BTW these were all adults, not teens, most of them women with grown children, getting paid top dollar.

Is it possible my gentile sitter did some dishonest or inappropriate things? Sure, but I found no evidence of such. With my frum sitters, I had proof.

To be fair, I had a gentile sitter who just didn't show up one day. She decided to quit and didn't have the courtesy to tell me. So I'm not trying to paint all gentile workers as G-d's gift, nor are all frum workers insubordinate and entitled. But neither do we have to assume that a gentile worker is a child molesting missionary.

33055

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 7:33 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I used the calculator to figure out what I am losing by being a sahm who works very part time - scary.

I then used it to figure out my cleaning lady costs - again scary.

Water Stones

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 7:39 pm

You're doing the right thing to have a cleaning help. Yes you could save more money if not, but so what, your cleaning help now is a good factor in your shalom bais.

We should think about the future and save money for it, but on some things we should think about TODAY right now life.

Be happy with that and don't worry to the money because you won't get broke from having that help!!

amother wrote:

Looking for some validation or advice. Here is the situation:

I have 4 young children, (one baby) all under the age of 8. I work very part time (Approx 15 hours a week), and my husband works as well and brings in a decent (but not large by any means) salary. We do have enough money right now to pay our bills BH, and due to some family help, we have some finances as well for a rainy day situation.

Here's my dilemma: I feel horribly spoiled that I have a cleaning lady come to me approx 10 hours a week. 3 hours at the beginning of week, 6 hours on fridays. She is kind, trustworthy, reliable, and willing to do everything from washing dishes, taking out garbage, cleaning really yucky messes, and even babysits occasionally. Although if I put my mind to it, I probably can clean myself, I really have no internal desire or interest in spending my time cleaning. Instead of cleaning, I can read to my kids, sit with them, watch them play, nurse my baby, and take care of all the household bills, appts, etc, and deal with some life challenges that are in our way in a calmer manner.

The thing is, I dont know if we can really afford the cleaning lady. I mean, we are not going into debt from it, but it just seems so expensive. Yet, I feel like my home is so much more calmer, shalom bayis is better, kids are easier to deal with etc, when I have this help.My husband is not the type to help clean at all, so if we didnt have her, it would all be on me. And no, I am not going to change him or pick a fight about it. So the cleaning lady really helps us keep a stable, happy home BH despite some life stresses. But is is so wasteful? Why am I spending so much on cleaning help? Validate me that this is right for me at the moment? I keep saying to myself I can get less help when my kids are older, now is the time I need the support, but I still cant help but get a sinking feeling when I give her so much cash at the end of the week. Maybe this money be better off used as savings? But then again, better spend it on a cleaning lady than a therapist, right??
Thanks for hearing me out wonderful ladies.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Apr 27 2017, 7:57 pm

I work 16 hours a week, have three small children and have 8 hours of cleaning help. She is my sanity, and I have to always remember to appreciate her. It's easy to appreciate her on the weeks she doesn't come. Only then do I notice what a big difference it makes when she's here.

Specifically, there are things in the house that I wouldn't never ever clean if it were up to me. Like the closet mirrors. But when the baby projectile vomits on it, I'm happy to know it will get cleaned eventually. Just not by me Smile