Does everything happen for a reason?

marina

Tue, May 02 2017, 5:09 pm

How does that expression go?
The religious person has to explain the existence of evil. The atheist has to explain the existence of everything else.

yksraya

Tue, May 02 2017, 5:44 pm

marina wrote:

How does that expression go?
The religious person has to explain the existence of evil. The atheist has to explain the existence of everything else.

Good one!!!

gp2.0

Tue, May 02 2017, 6:51 pm

It's blindingly obvious that if you believe in bechirah (which we do) then people can choose to be evil and God will let them because otherwise there would be no free will.

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, May 02 2017, 7:15 pm

Iymnok wrote:

You could believe that god tortures babies and kills off good people. But that's over simplifying and greatly minimizes the immense magnitude of G-d. Nothing is in a bubble besides you.
You only see one little tiny corner. Once you have a clear understanding of the entire picture you won't have questions.
That's the passuk אז ימלא שחוק פינו. The clarity will be such a shock that we will laugh. Words won't suffice. אז can mean olam haba or yemos hamoshiach.

The issue I have with this type of argument is that it can't be demonstrated or proven. It's just blind faith. Babies suffering- it's really good and part of the bigger plan. 40 year old can't find a shidduch- also good and part of the plan. But since I don't see it or understand it on any level, I can't really take meaningful comfort from it. And by the way, neither does anyone else. When c'vs a baby is suffering, we DON'T say that it's part of the plan. We beg hashem to change it as we see fit.

PinkFridge

Tue, May 02 2017, 8:28 pm

amother wrote:

Of course we do. But we believe that there is a reason for the baby to suffer to begin with. What that reason is, I could not and would not begin to say.

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, May 02 2017, 8:41 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Of course we do. But we believe that there is a reason for the baby to suffer to begin with. What that reason is, I could not and would not begin to say.

But there seems to be a conflict between honestly believing that everything that's happening is good while at the same time davening and begging hashem to change it. Do we honestly believe that sickness is good? Do we honestly believe that not being able to have children is good? No, in the way hashem made us, we simply don't really believe it. We are programmed to say these things, but we don't really mean it. The day that people stop davening for health, parnasa, shidduchim, and other vitals, I'll accept that we really believe everything hashem does is good. We say berochos thanking hashem for giving us clothes, sight, and strength. The reason is that these things are good. The lack of these things are bad. Everyone agrees blindness is bad. If someone c'vs became blind we would all run and say tehilim, daven, give tzedaka, and bake challah so this person should regain their eyesight. We would not say that everything hashem does is good including blindness.

gp2.0

Tue, May 02 2017, 9:00 pm

I believe that bad things caused by nature (as opposed to evil caused by man) exist to make the world a better place.

God gave us gan Eden once. It didn't work out. Then He decided that instead of presenting us with a perfect world, we'd have to figure out how to get there on our own.

Every tragedy is a chance for us to exercise our free will and every choice we make as a result brings us either one step closer or one step further away from attaining the perfect world (aka Moshiach.)

Tragedy exists because we aren't living in gan Eden. It exists because it turns us into better people. Some people are too close to the tragedy and they just suffer. But other people see their suffering and that's where things start changing. Do other people offer to help? How and to what degree? All of this matters.

I think we're closer to moshiach's times then we've ever been. This is the only point in history to have international organizations that exist purely to help people. We're more connected to each other than we've ever been.

Sickness itself is not good - it's merely a symptom of a diseased world that we are in the process of healing, one step at a time, until the world is completely healed/moshiach is here. Maybe the point of sickness is to cause our morality and empathy to grow at the same rate as our intelligence.

sequoia

Tue, May 02 2017, 9:12 pm

Again, how do you explain evil caused by humans?

Like, suppose it's your kid that's kidnapped. Raped. Tortured. Eventually murdered. You search, the police search, but it's too late. All you recover is a scarred, broken little body with traces of s-xual assault.

Would it really be a comfort to you in that situation to believe that G-d is omniscient, omnipotent, and (somehow!) benevolent?

Or would you rather believe that it was a matter of simply bad luck that the psycho encountered *your* kid?

debsey

Tue, May 02 2017, 10:07 pm

sequoia wrote:

Yes. Absolutely. That would be the only thing that could comfort me.

Chazal address the problem of evil caused by humans in Sefer Shemos, where it says "Hashem hardened the heart of Pharaoh" If Hashem hardened his heart, why does he get punished? Because "b'derech sh'adam rotzah lalaich, molichin oso" you are led in the direction you are already going. If an evil person is making the free choice to hurt someone, and that someone is me (because even hypothetically, can't wrap my mind around it being my kid), all of that is part of G-d's plan, and if I wouldn't have been hurt by that particular evil person (because he made the free choice to repent) then I would have been hurt by someone or something else.

That Hashem has a master plan is the only possible comfort I could ever think of. And I say this after having been through some objectively horrible things in my life (not going to betray my real identity so you'll just have to trust me on that).

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, May 02 2017, 10:16 pm

debsey wrote:

I guess it's hard for some to take comfort that "it's part of hashem's master plan, and it's good" when if we are being intellectually honest, it flies in the face of, and directly contradicts everything we know and understand about "good".

amother

Teal

Tue, May 02 2017, 10:24 pm

Everything happens for A reason--we may not understand the reason. Sharing with you my personal story where I was zocheh to see REAL yeshua, but not in the manner that I would've chosen--and I believe that I'm not at "the end yet"

This was something I wrote last summer when I had a chance to catch my breath. I had to let some of the people who were part of the amazing story "in" on my yeshua. Its a long story--but worth reading.

"Now that things have had a chance to settle down a bit, I figured it would be a good time to let you in on the amazing hashgacha pratis story that led me to you last year--and continued up until this point. It's a bit of a "long story" but rather incredible. I know you must be busy getting the impending school year ready, but I think this story is worth reading until the end.

The story more or less starts around 7 years ago.
While, I know I have a lot of positive qualities as a special-education teacher, I struggled for most of that portion of my career to get those that mattered to notice and respect me. Rather then receiving help with my weaknesses as a teacher, it always seemed that my supervisors seemed to "punish" me because of them.

Special education was supposed to be the launching pad to help me become a school psychologist, but as a single girl, when I was dating to be my husband, when I told him that I had NO CLUE how I was going to pull-off the "year-long unpaid internship" I told him we'd need "a miracle or mashiach would need to come"--I guess I decided that he was the ONE when he didn't laugh in my face and continued to date me Wink

.

My special-ed career was always shaky, I just couldn't find that good niche. I was good at my job--seemingly just as competent as those around me-- but I always seemed to get into "trouble" for no reason. My "best" tenure of teaching was during the time that I got engaged and got married. I was there for about a year and a half, when "vayakam melech chadash" and a new administrator creeped up and out-of-the-blue fired me when I was expecting my oldest son, right after the passing of my husband's sister. It was a cruel blow, and I had a hard time finding a job while I was pregnant. I applied to every school that was advertising--even Catapult. Nothing. About 7-8 weeks after he was born, I found a job as a special education preschool teacher at a nearby school. The commute , and the hours were great, but the pay was a significant cut to what I had been making. The working conditions were less than optimal. My classroom was on average 80 degrees with poor ventilation, the classroom was not adequately staffed, and the children were poorly placed and despite everything I could think of, and discussed with more experienced teachers and professionals, these kids were unmanageable (everyone except the director seemed to agree with me and she could not be swayed), and I just couldn't seem to please the director. She had already made the decision to let me go at the end of the summer, but with 3 days left to the summer session, out of frustration and a sense of defeat I made a significant accidental blunder that caused me to be terminated suddenly from there as well. While I was pretty let down, I found a new job within a few days. However, the way this job started, it brought with it that uneasy feeling immediately. I didn't get off to a good start with my assistant, there were more changes, and again I found myself with a child (5 year-old junior psychopath--strong language, but trust me, it was fitting) who seemed to do everything in his power to get me fired. I was expecting my 2nd son, and though I thought I managed to get myself into a decent rhythm with my classroom staff, this school fired me with 3 weeks left to the school year--with "poor excuses" at best as their explanation. I had seemingly "struck out." Not so much as due to what I was "doing wrong" but I couldn't seem to get my supervisors to notice my good qualities. I felf dejected, and in many ways destroyed.

After my 2nd son was born, a friend of mine hooked me up with a Catholic school to do SETTS, I had another SETTS case and I started picking up EI cases. It was piecemeal, and would've been "not bad" except I was caught in a micro-scandal within the Board of Ed in that they weren't releasing the payments. I started these cases Mid-September, and didn't see the money until February or March of the next year! Not getting paid timely I was caught in a catch-22 that I needed more work, but couldn't pay for more babysitting. It was probably around this time that I applied to the Catapult 5th grade job (it was the 3rd time applying to Catapult--and again didn't get me anywhere). I was also in a tough position, b/c I was supposed to be starting my internship the next year, and needed a "part-time" job that would pay my bills. In February I had seemingly secured my internship--a place that I had had my eye on for a few years, it was local and would work with my "schedule". They even offered me a summer "practicum" or "pre-internship" which I could've forgone, but since it fell into my lap--why not?

Finally around Pesach time I seemed to hit the Jackpot. I was hired for a half-day Title 1 pre-K pilot program through the DOE, they were excited to have my background, they seemed to have a quality program, were offering training, and it would've paid handsomely and allowed me to do my internship as planned. I even set up my classroom, and met with the principal. Everything seemed to be working out PERFECTLY.

Then, right before I was about to start teaching, it unraveled. I had to fill out the DOE "Clearance" questionnaire. Among the questions "Were you ever fired?" and I honestly answered, "yes." I panicked, I gave all the nitty gritty details, hoping that someone would realize that I had been a victim of bad directors, and inadequate support, but after participating in the investigation, and the appeal, getting every other colleague that KNEW my good qualities, that I was a quality educator to write me a letter, trying to seek legal counsel, the result was all the same: DENIED.

This was an excruciating blow--it meant I had to stop doing my SETTS cases, I could no longer do SEIT, no DOE job, and the site where I was scheduled to do my internship was also affected by this decision. I couldn't be a part of any "vendors of the DOE". I was CRUSHED. It seemed like my world collapsed. I had worked SO hard, and I literally felt the knives sticking out in my back.

Then, almost as soon it seemed dark, yeshuas HaShem k'heref ayin, things began to turn around. At my summer practicum, there was a fellow-graduate student who felt my pain and said, "you know what I was debating between 2 internship sites, here you take this one" and I called up the director, a psychologist in a High School in Nassau county. However, I was so scared that what I had been through with the NYC DOE would somehow "leak" that I remained very guarded, and was honestly--"shell shocked" for the first half-of the year.

On the financial front, I was taking all the EI cases that I could, not saying "no" to too many, and running ALL AROUND Queens , running myself ragged from 7am-6pm. Then going home to do billing and reports, dealing with (more) sudden rejections from parents, every agency that I would sign up with would "dry up" and I never seemed to have enough work, even though I never had enough time.

On the school psychology front, having practically no prior experience in high school, I got used to it, and by spring, I was finally coming around. However, my supervisors were "less than impressed with me" and he was considering not having me come back for the 2nd year, unless I made some improvements. This felt crushing once again. I felt like a failure as a special-ed teacher--I couldn't teach a classroom, I couldn't do SETTS/resource room/Title1, I couldn't get enough EI cases, ABA didn't seem to be sitting well with me, and I was failing at my dream career of school psychologist. I felt very lost.

Then 2 more things came up to add "salt to the wound" 1) Touro was pressuring me to graduate with "lesser degree" because of a miscommunication in an email and I had to remind them of our agreement 2) I found out I was expecting my daughter, I had NO idea how I was going to complete the required hours and be out on maternity leave. I was beside myself, I needed some guidance from Above!

Then the sign came. Towards mid-August I was called by the director of one of my Early Intervention agencies, they were looking for a teacher for one of their classes at their "sister school". I had to cut my badly-needed vacation short, to go to the interview, and give it my all, b/c I needed SOMETHING--I only had a few EI cases and September (and yom tov) was looming.

At the interview, I came out and told the director, that there was only a 50/50 chance that I was going to be available, I was actually waiting to hear back from Touro to hear if they were going realize the miscommunication, and allow me to finish my internship, but I wasn't entirely sure I wanted to anyway, I thought it was time to go "back to work full-time". The director asked me some questions about my educational philosophy and she finally said, "While I think you'd make an OK teacher, you'd make an even BETTER school psychologist, go back and finish." Miraculously, Touro agreed to let me finish my degree, but there was still one problem, I didn't have enough paid work going into the school year for this to work. Being pregnant, the thought of pushing myself to do more EI cases was making me more sick than morning sicknesses. One of the big factors pushing me to finish the 2nd half of the internship, was that the summer of "gehinom" when I was at my pre-internship/practicum, was in a large part a pre-requisite to trying to apply for "National Certification", and if I didn't complete the 2nd half of the internship, I felt that it would've been a completely wasted summer.

Then, came your phone call, I almost jumped out of my skin. I was eager for the opportunity, but at the same time--hearing that the other teacher was "hesitant to teach with 3 kids"-- I was incredibly scared at the same time,and, I was still wary that my past was going to come out, so I never wanted to say anything to put our relationship in jeopardy When you came back to me with the sub-position--it was the answer that I had been seeking (especially hearing what you went through to get my phone number). And, if I may be so bold in my assessment of the year, (at least on my end) it worked out PERFECTLY.

Ok, so after I graduated, and I knew that I couldn't really feel confident in applying for jobs, b/c I still didn't have clearance for the DOE--thinking, who would think of hiring me knowing that I'm not "cleared". However, having had such a good year at both my internship and Darchei, I felf confident that I finally had the "missing pieces"--but the only way I could see to get clearance, was through a friend of mine. She was an administrator at a SETTS placement agency, she at least knew that my "lack of security clearance" was due to "bad people" rather than my incompetence, so I went through the process of "getting cleared" to work for her agency--and largely in part because of your letter. It WORKED!!! I never actually accepted any cases from the agency--but it was a WIN-WIN situation for us.

While that seems to be the end of the story, its not. September was coming again and still no job. Finally, the last week of August I applied to a school that I worked for during my "good years" as a special education teacher, a school that remembered me as a "good teacher"--but when I left them it was due to logisitical reasons and I had been given a better offer. Things seemed to start off well, but challenging, and I thought "Hey I'm doing this!" but then around y"t, things seemed to be going awry again, I had a challenging class, but instead of support, I was being criticized again. None of my peer-colleagues understood the criticism that I was being given. Once again my supervisors were being sneaky and conniving about things--and then the "final blow" I was suddenly replaced in my classroom. Here we go again, I thought! I wasn't fired, I was reassigned to a different position, but I was devastated again, failure at teaching again. That's it I thought, no more teaching.

And then, I get the email. The director at the preschool, who saw my potential as a school psychologist a year ago, was emailing me asking me if I was "available"--and I responded YES!. We met mid-November, and I was ready to sign on right after my curent job went through an audit. I would make the jump after Thanksgiving.

Then the final "episode of the nightmare" came the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, the day I was due to give notice. I had to fill out the "DOE clearance" form--and answer the question of "Were you ever fired" again--and I answered again "yes--but we've been through this, and I was granted clearance". For a few hours that day I was "under investigation" while they reviewed my case. Those were among the most nerve-wracking hours, but before the end of Wednesday I was CLEARED, and I gave my 2 weeks' notice.

I started this job mid-December, having left that previous school "amicably" and on good terms. And the "irony" is that my current job is k'mat, identical to that "summer practicum" that I almost thought was a wasted summer. I'm working at a job where I feel appreciated, and up until this point, no one has "stabbed me in the back yet"

I have a sneaky suspicion, that this story is still not "over" but it certainly has come "full-circle" at this point in many ways. I definitely feel like this is the career that I was destined for. I feel like a lot of my experiences in different aspects of special education are coming into play here and that the struggle I went through was not for nothing.

One last piece of good news to wrap up this story, my husband received smicha last week. Meaning that we both met our "goals" up to this point in our lives despite not having a clue 7 years ago when we were dating. Moshiach hasn't come yet, but this story is certainly full of "small miracles." Where it will take us we have NO idea, yet, but just as HaShem has gotten us to this point, He will guide us forward.

I hope that our paths will cross again, but know that I will forever be grateful for the opportunity that you gave me to "get my life back together." You were an important piece to this puzzle."

imasinger

Wed, May 03 2017, 7:09 am

Wow, Teal, that's quite a story! Thanks for sharing it.

One piece of advice. More than once, it sounds as if you were told that you didn't handle criticism from peers or supervisors well. If you want to continue to enjoy your current position, make extra sure that a) you have a clear idea of what your colleagues and supervisors are saying about you (it's helpful to find a mentor or friend and ask them to be bluntly honest with you at all times); and b) that you work through any issues you have in how you accept critical comments, particularly on the job. Don't try to make excuses, it looks bad. Don't blame others. Ask what steps you need to take to improve, and for any advice as to how to master those steps.

There are many self help books about the politics of work life, evil bosses, etc. Read them (in all your copious free time) and think how you can use what you learn.

You sound like a woman of many strengths. May you continue to grow.

PinkFridge

Wed, May 03 2017, 9:18 am

amother wrote:

We're not Christian Scientists.
We believe that right now, the situation we're in is not random. (I'll deal with the next post re horrific human actions if I can.) We can, at the same time, ask Hashem to relieve the situation so we can serve Him in a way we perceive as more optimal.

And when it comes to helping someone else, e.g tzedaka, I've heard that this is when we use the middah of apikorsus (if you could call it a middah): we have to act as if there is no Ribbono shel Olam, ch"v, and do for another instead of offering bromides.

Let me stress, this is what I say to myself. I say this during times of calm so that when the going gets tough, I have what to draw from. I wouldn't say this to someone who is suffering (and I apologize to anyone for whom this whole conversation is a trigger).

PinkFridge

Wed, May 03 2017, 9:21 am

debsey wrote:

Sequoia, I agree with this.

PinkFridge

Wed, May 03 2017, 9:24 am

amother wrote:

And that's the challenge. If it's not hard, it's not a challenge.
And hard as it is to believe, Hashem doesn't run the world with strict din as He originally planned but with rachamim. Which extends to grading how people deal with challenges on a curve, I.e. with love and rachamim. I truly believe this. I know there are people here who have been through hell on earth (without knowing all your specific stories) and you might say, well according to PF, etc. I'm doomed after 120 because I'm not processing this the way I'm supposed to.

No, you're not doomed. You're doing great. Hang in there.

amother

Saddlebrown

Wed, May 03 2017, 11:20 am

PinkFridge wrote:

[u]

I always appreciate your posts pink fridge, even though I often don't see it your way.
The bolded is what I struggle to understand. I think if we really believed that hashem is in complete control, and every single thing he does is 100% good, then then we wouldn't ask him to change the situation to something that we see more optimal. If I was on an airplane that was going thru turbulence, (I hate that!) it would never enter my mind to make a suggestion to the pilot as to how to help the situation. Am I going to compare my incredibly limited knowledge to that of the pilot? Ridiculous! Yet with hashem, where the disparity of "knowledge" between us and him is infinitely greater than between us and the pilot, we always have suggestions. Hashem I need this and that to work out. Why don't ANY of us simply say that hashem is in control and everything he's doing is pure good for us? How dare us humans daven for him to change his plans and leave hashem tips in his suggestion box?

amother

Teal

Wed, May 03 2017, 12:51 pm

imasinger wrote:

Believe me--I did my fair share of introspection and self-analysis, it never made ANY sense. I did learn how to take criticism better, but believe me in those situations, I almost always found out afterwards from my "informants" it wasn't about me. Not coincidentally my successors weren't usually much more successful than me. However, I now realize that while it was a painful experience, it led me to my current position, which is where I'm meant to be. It's almost like Hashem never wanted me to get too comfortable in teaching so that I would drive to get where I am. There were many junctures where I could've said "Ok, so I'll just teach"--but no, He didn't let me get complacent. Even earlier this year, I was asked to cover a class when I wasn't busy, and I did it for 1/2 a day, and I realized--I just can't do this anymore--I have NO desire right now to be back in that environment. Last year, a teacher colleague of mine came back to me to complain about her supervisor and I all I could say was "been there, done that"--Ed supervisors tend to be clueless about classroom management. The one Ed supervisor I've met who still had her "wits" about her--was a former teacher that started teaching at the same time I did, I asked her "When did you get your supervisor degree?" and she said "I didn't"--Ah, that explains it. At one point I considered going for my supervisor's degree and my husband said "Don't, seems that a prerequisite is that they remove part of your brain"--and I almost believe it! Bottom line is I'm in a field now, where I understand the ins and outs of it--I can tell parents "I did EI", or "I did ABA" or "I taught this kind of classroom" and my opinions are respected, my supervisor doesn't bother me b/c she knows I know what I'm doing. Its not the "perfect job" but pretty close to it for now. I would never have been so successful in my current job if not for each and every one of the experiences that I had been through, and my supervisor knows that I would be hard to replace for that reason Wink

PinkFridge

Wed, May 03 2017, 3:23 pm

amother wrote:

What you say sounds so logical.
But Hashem wants us to communicate and connect with Him. That's what it's all about. So we are not only allowed to say what I said, which might seem like unmitigated gall, we are SUPPOSED to say it. That doesn't mean that we can't accept the situation we have been put in, and try to grow from it if possible.

amother

Black

Wed, May 03 2017, 4:13 pm

So I actually DO feel scared to daven for things to be different, because I do believe that Hashem controls everything, and what would I know? So when I am in a crisis situation, I tend to start wanting to daven for something specific, but I am afraid to, or I think it is wrong, and I end up saying something like "please let me serve You better through this" or something equally general and pareve. Or if it's really bad "please take this test away I CAN'T anymore. I CAN'T!. Take it away or I'm outta here". I'd never actually do myself in. But asking for specific things I don't usually do. I that a bad approach?

ora_43

Wed, May 03 2017, 4:44 pm

I don't think we need to see the good in human evil.

Human evil is, you know... evil. It's horrible. It makes the world worse, not better. There is no need for human evil in the divine plan; if there was, Hashem wouldn't have so very clearly commanded people not to do those things.

Murder is not "part of the plan."

But I do think it's possible to say that it isn't part of the plan, but that Hashem has reasons for allowing it. And that Hashem is able to pay people back one hundred times over for their suffering, even after death.

I'm not really up to taking that approach myself, most days, but I think it's reasonable.

Ultimately, though, none of the explanations for suffering are ever going to be good enough. The Torah itself tells us we'll never understand. "You will not be able to see My face, for man shall not see Me and live."