Why does everyone say 'do whats best for you'?

Fox

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:34 pm

tichellady wrote:

I guess we disagree about this. I don't see being kind to unkind people as this supreme value. It's definitely something to strive for, but there are plenty of other things I need to work on before I get there.

If you don't value being kind to unkind people, then it's more accurate to say that you don't see being kind as an important value.

The point is that we're all unkind people at one time or another. Do you think that people can be easily sorted into categories based on some objective standard? Do you think that your children will agree 100 percent with what's important to you?

For each idea or expectation that you find bizarre, I can assure you that you hold a value that other people would find equally bizarre and would say about you, "Thank G-d I don't live like that!"

Fox

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:45 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Did you do it when you were postpartum?

Huh? I'm not sure what that has to do with it. Why are people so stuck on this particular example?

There's no one single "postpartum." My own postpartum experiences ranged from a birth where I came home the same day to a C-section that wiped me out for weeks. My "errand baby" was born on a Friday morning, and we had guests that evening -- though I allowed them to help serve and tidy up. I didn't cancel because I was perfectly able to host them. After my C-section, I couldn't even make lunches for my kids.

Having a baby doesn't automatically turn you into an invalid. If you've had a physically challenging pregnancy or birth, you take that into consideration. If not, you also take that into consideration.

tichellady

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:53 pm

Fox wrote:

Actually I said it's not a supreme value, not that I don't value it all . And I don't have very many expectations of people. I try not to judge people since I know there are lots of details I am not privy to. I am sure my children will think that I'm being crazy and annoying sometimes, like I do with my parents, and they will tell me, like I do with my parents, and we will talk it out and move on. I don't claim to be a perfect person, and I do go beyond my comfort zone for other people, but that doesn't mean I never stick up for my own needs

Zehava

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:58 pm

Fox wrote:

Actually it does. According to halacha and science both.
Cool that you martyred yourself to have guests a day after giving birth but most of us regular people are physically, mentally, and emotionally fragile after giving birth.

pause

Fri, May 05 2017, 1:04 pm

I know someone who went to recover at her mother's house after her 7th baby! Her mother has a tiny house and still has single children home. Her mother works and does not take the baby at night. No private bathroom. Lots of noise and lack of privacy. But she likes to go. Because it's the house she grew up in. Because she loves her mother's company. Because she gets to be "in" on the action. She's not doing it because it's expected. Her mother doesn't "make" her come.

OTOH, I know someone else who stayed home to recover after her 2nd baby. Her mother's house is regular size, but there are children home. Her mother doesn't work, but she doesn't enjoy her company. Lots of noise and lack of privacy. So she chose to stay home. And her mother was upset because it's expected and didn't make her look good.

So yes, let everyone do what's best for them!

allthingsblue

Fri, May 05 2017, 1:10 pm

Fox wrote:

You really don't get it.

The reason I am "stuck" on this example is because some people seem to think there is NEVER an excuse to do anything that may slight your mother, no matter if you gave birth yesterday or not.
Well, I gave birth to my first, it was no picnic (it was my first so everything was a shock and maybe slightly traumatizing to me), and I decided to do what I felt I needed to do.
But because my mother chose to be offended (because what will everyone else think when they hear that my daughter didn't come to me after she gave birth), I did something terribly unkind, according to you.
Postpartum, hellloooo! Just because you had an "errand baby," doesn't mean I did! In fact, I can't imagine ever having that! Emotionally and physically, I need to recuperate. I need privacy. I need time to cry in my own room without anyone barging in and saying "omg why are you crying?" (I cry a lot after birth, for no reason other than hormones.) I need to be able to keep my stitches cream and my stitches spritzer and my manual nursing pump in a private place, not on display for my brothers to see.

Whatever. I'm done defending myself. I did what I needed to do. I was backed by my husband, and father, and rav and my own gut feeling.

Just remember: you're never going to make everyone happy. If you think that kind= making the other person happy, you might run into trouble when you meet people who have expectations.

pause

Fri, May 05 2017, 1:13 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

And me, FWIW. LOL

Fox

Fri, May 05 2017, 1:34 pm

tichellady wrote:

I don't claim to be a perfect person, and I do go beyond my comfort zone for other people, but that doesn't mean I never stick up for my own needs

So what's the disagreement about? Whether a hypothetical new mother should please her fictional mother? No one has suggested that people go to unhealthy extremes to please others. We're simply saying that it can be easy to confuse legitimate needs with self-absorption, and we have to watch out for that.

Zehava wrote:

Cool that you martyred yourself to have guests a day after giving birth but most of us regular people are physically, mentally, and emotionally fragile after giving birth.

Sigh. I think you missed the point. What I did or didn't do isn't relevant. I was trying to illustrate that even an individual woman can have wildly variable postpartum experiences.

Why insist on defining some objective "regular" that must be applied to every situation. My point was that I can't even identify "regular" across my own experiences, let alone apply it to a large group.

Weighing and considering the feelings of other people does not mean that you're not taking appropriate care of yourself. It means that you are maturely figuring out the proper balance. There is no "always." Someone who always puts her own comfort first is precisely the sort of unkind, insensitive person being criticized. Someone who always puts others' comfort first is a doormat.

Postpartum mothers are exempted from many mitzvos and are given tremendous latitude to make themselves comfortable. However, that does not mean that they are under some kind of compulsion to put the consideration of others out of their minds.

tichellady

Fri, May 05 2017, 1:47 pm

Fox wrote:

I totally agree. this is common sense to me. The problem is in this thread is that people have specifically picked on posters on this thread for advocating for themselves even when that meant others were offended. Why isn't everyone telling allthingsblue that it sounds like she made the right decision given the circumstances?

Last edited by tichellady on Fri, May 05 2017, 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Royalblue

Fri, May 05 2017, 1:50 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

I just want to point out how lucky you are that you had so many people backing you when you expressed a real need. So many of us don't- and were in fact raised with the idea that "good" means not having needs. This becomes automatic for us, and it's an actual internal battle every time we consider asking our dh to give the toddler a bath or a coworker to switch shifts. Then we spend lots of money in therapy trying to undo this dysfunctional way of living...

Fox

Fri, May 05 2017, 1:56 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Okay, speaking of balance, I'm going to have to take a deep breath here.

This thread has obviously hit a very personal nerve for you, and I'm sorry if what I said seemed insensitive. I did not make up the example, and it was unclear to me whether it was based on a previous thread or simply created for purposes of discussion.

That said, you're not being honest. No one -- absolutely no one -- has said that there is "NEVER an excuse" to make your mother unhappy. In fact, I and several other posters have specifically and repeatedly said that there are always going to be situations in which doing the appropriate thing will hurt someone's feelings.

Your characterization of my "errand baby" is very unfair and needlessly hurtful. You neglected to mention that I also had a very difficult delivery that left me more-or-less incapacitated for weeks. I guess that didn't count in your eyes. My point was that even one person can have wildly different experiences and that we can't make generalizations.

Honestly, I think people are overreacting. Postpartum women are in general perfectly capable of weighing their own needs against the desires of others -- as are people facing all kinds of situations that are quite frankly a lot more traumatizing than even a difficult birth. In your case, you weighed both sides, sought advice, and made the right decision. No one is claiming you personally were wrong. Suggesting that people balance their own desires against those of their loved ones doesn't constitute an attack.

pizza4

Fri, May 05 2017, 2:19 pm

I actually agree that some people, sometimes, take the saying "do what's best for you" to extremes. Like, I feel sooo bad for you and really want to help but what should I do I need to do what's best for me. Meaning small things that would be somewhat difficult but not overwhelming. Everyone can define that as they feel is right.
Up to a point though!
After my first baby I went to my mother as expected. But then she decided to bring home our mentally ill brother and since it would have been too much for me (triggering and all that) I went to MIL. And have after subsequent births.
See what I mean? So mom, sorry for shaming you by staying away postpartum, but seriously you chose him over me! Also, you can't know what is really going on in a poster's life from a couple posts.
I still don't do what's best for me many times. And feel terribly guilty each time. But I'll get there one day, I hope.

amother

Wine

Fri, May 05 2017, 2:19 pm

Going to agree that this thread is super triggering. Dh literally had to teach me to stand up for myself after marriage , to not be a shmattah to everyone because "what will ppl think", who cares what's good for me? I did go to my mother pp, bec I was longing for that loving caring environment, and boy did I regret it. Every single time.
Yes, I named a few children the obligatory names, until I said no no more. I will give names that are meaningful to me.
My mother had a fit, although a few yrs before when my mil did the same, my mother kept saying how the child who gives birth has the right to choose the name, not the grandparents.
And the most shocking thing is that I now cut my mother off. You know why? Because it was good for me. For my mind, my body, my soul, my marriage, for my kids. I did it to save my life.
Before you all jump on me, I grew up in an abusive home, fyi, and this decision was made with the advisement of mental health professionals.

crust

Fri, May 05 2017, 2:48 pm

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