Why does everyone say 'do whats best for you'?

Simple1

Fri, May 05 2017, 7:42 am

There has to be a happy medium here. People shouldn't be martyrs. But OTOH, I think there is value in pushing a little beyond our comfort zone and being considerate of others' needs and feelings.

watergirl

Fri, May 05 2017, 7:58 am

amother wrote:

So?
You are always your mothers baby. Giving birth yourself doesn't undo the fact that your mother gave birth to you and you are obliged to respect her because of it.
I get the 'needing to rest' after childbirth - but at what cost? Personally, I would not want my mothers feelings to be hurt and I am sure she would be bending over backwards all over the place to help me as much as possible, to keep my siblings quiet etc - whether the house was hopping or not. Plus, I would not want to shame her in front of her friends - as the poster said, it is the done thing to move into your mothers in her community.
But then again. That's me. I care about my mothers feelings. Who knows what her relationship is?
But I still stand by my initial point, regardless of her situation. Other people matter, not just our own happiness.
Suck it up.

The type of thinking that you are espousing is not kibbud em. You are mixing that up with something totally different. Contrived, forced, manufactured community norms that force enmeshed relationships are not good for anyone. Thats why before pesach/succos every year, we have a million posts on here from BOTH mothers AND daughters "my mother expects me to come but we just want to stay home and she'll be so hurt if I dont and thats what everyone does... " and "my daughter/son wants to come but I've been making pesach for many years and I need a break, but thats what everyone does..." Individuality, needs of yourself... it all goes out the window. "respect" gets confused with "conformity".

When children are made to wear the same shoes, bags, clothes, then kallahs wear the same jewelry, all do the same things, lifestyle wise, etc, the element of CHOICE and INDIVIDUALITY is totally removed so when someone says ENOUGH I need to do whats right FOR ME, the yentas start to click their tongues. Like you said, linen, this mother will be embarrassed in front of her friends....

So this mother has a choice here. She can let her friends click their tongues, be embarrassed, because her daughter is not doing WHATS DONE. ORRRRR the mother can decide that her daughter is RIGHT! Why should a woman who needs to change a bloody pad every hour have to wait for the bathroom in her mothers house? Why should this woman have to sleep in a tiny bed? With children underfoot? All for the mother's "kavod" NO! The mother can and SHOULD tell her yenta friends that this is whats best for her daughter, who needs to recover. Seriously, linen! Do we really mean it when we say that a kimpturin has to rest and recover? Or is that just a front so the mother can tell her friends all the good things that she is doing?

Why doesnt this mother want whats best for her child?

Why are you putting your own idea of what kavod means into your child's head and responsibilities? Ask yourself - who is this for? Why do I want my child to use a baby name that she may not like, is not her style, whatever? For who? For what?
Why do I need her to come to me for pesach?
Why am I expecting my child to be my nachas machine?

This is not torah! This is not kibbud av/em! This is allowing what is "done" to dictate your life.
That sounds to me like allowing your yetzer hara to disguise itself yentas and manufactured societal norms to mess with your shalom.

Edited to add:

amother wrote:

THIS.
This poster who posted about staying with her MIL even though her mother was so hurt. THIS. Exactly.
I am trying so hard not to judge but why would it be ok to let your mother feel hurt? Why would you want to? Yes it is 'better' for you, 'easier' for you but you are not a mentch in my book. Sorry for judging you but that's the truth. Some things are hard - and its not always about what's best for you. Yes you just had a baby - but guess what, YOU are your mothers baby - and presuming you have a healthy relationship, why would you let her feel hurt??? When its in your control? Maybe your relationship is terrible, who knows, maybe she always plays the hurt card, who knows, but I bet you hope your own baby will be careful of your feelings in the future even if it is at odds of what's 'best' for her.

I cant get past your self righteousness. First claiming that you are trying not to judge... then fake apologizing for judging. Telling her that she is not a mentch in your book. WHO ARE YOU that you keep a "book" over who is and who is not a mentch? For judging? As far as I'm aware, HKBH has enough melachim to help Him with this. He has His own book. You can close yours. The only responsibility that you have here when it comes to making judgments is making sure that they are favorable ones.

amother

Lemon

Fri, May 05 2017, 8:21 am

A healthy parent wants her adult children to do what they feel best for them even if that doesn't match her own preferences. It's their life, not hers. This is not to say that a healthy parent accepts rudeness, neglect or disrespect. If the dc spend nine out of ten Shabbosim with the inlaws and the other one with friends, a parent has a right--nay, an obligation--to demand equal time or effort. If a dc wants to go on vacation when her father has been given three days to live, a healthy mother has a right--nay, an obligation--to insist the dc come home to say goodbye. If the dc make a party for the grandchildren and invite one set of inlaws but not the other, a healthy parent has a right to feel insulted.

octopus

Fri, May 05 2017, 8:25 am

If you are going to pull the kibud eim card, I will pull the choleh card. A postpartum woman has a real din of choleh - and I think , though I'm not 100% sure, it's a sheyesh boh sakana. A postpartum woman has a real halachic status of a sick person. That's not so simple. I'm pretty sure that makes her exempt from people pleasing, and when ppl offer help, it has to be in the choleh's best interest, not the other person's feelings. Privacy and quiet is a big deal after giving birth. Hate to be graphic, but you kinda need your own bathroom after giving birth if you ask me. I would rather stay home, then have to share with siblings.

watergirl

Fri, May 05 2017, 8:28 am

amother wrote:

Your operative word her is "healthy". And thats what some are missing. So if the child is going 9 out of 10 shabbosim to her inlaws, a healthy mother may also wonder why they wont stay home for shabbos too, and see how she can help. Also, a healthy mother would ask the child WHY she isnt coming, what can I do to make it more comfortable for you? So I feel like in a truly healthy situation, your examples would not even exist. Kwim?

amother

Powderblue

Fri, May 05 2017, 9:29 am

I didn't read the whole thread...
I'm one of those that hardly does "what's best for me". most of my decisions are to make the other side happy, mainly my parents. it's not as beautiful and special as it sounds. inside I hold so much resentment and pain. I spend nights crying in frustration because I feel I HAVE to do whatever it takes to make my parents happy regardless of my wants and feelings.
I wish I had a bit of the "what's best for me" attitude. and kudos to the mother that went to her mil instead of her mom. I'd never be able to pull it off but she was in a delicate state and considered herself more than her mother who should be happy that her daughter had a nice restful place to stay.

crust

Fri, May 05 2017, 9:42 am

amother wrote:

The What's good for me attitude is a muscle that is not equally strong in everyone.
If a child has an undeveloped muscle do you do? you go to a physical therapist to develop strengthen it.
Do the same with your emotional loose/undeveloped muscles!

amother

Powderblue

Fri, May 05 2017, 9:45 am

crust wrote:

I've been to therapy. turns out I was going to a trauma therapist for over a year. no wonder nothing has changed. right now I don't have the strength to start over, emotionally and financially.

treestump

Fri, May 05 2017, 9:56 am

amother wrote:

I know a few people with this attitude. They are enmeshed with their mothers, and do not have healthy boundaries.

Respecting your mother does not mean compromising your own recovery after birth.

You are not responsible for your mother's feelings. If she feels shame because you, as an adult right after birth, need a quieter place to recuperate, that is her issue to work through. Not yours.

It is unhealthy to take on the burden of everyone else's feelings. We are not responsible to ensure other adults' happiness. They are. Listening to what your body and mind needs after a major upheaval to your body, is what responsible people do. And if other people feel hurt because of ridiculous community pressure and expectations - that is their problem, and their responsibility to work through. Not yours.

You might feel like your mindset is ideal, but it is far, far from ideal.

watergirl

Fri, May 05 2017, 10:08 am

amother wrote:

Something else about this post jumped out at me. This sounds like it would be quite a tircha for many mothers. If a mother has her own home to run, more kids at home, and she has to bend over backwards for you to have the recuperation and rest that she needs - are you SURE she wants to do this at all? I assume the op from that thread's mother does want to do this, thats why she's hurt. But it doesnt sound healthy for that mother either, and it doesnt sound like THAT mother has the strength to do whats best for HER and her family either! How is bending over backwards appropriate? Esp when there is an even better option? The more I think about this, the more I think that this whole situation isnt healthy at all.

I went to a therapist for a while to deal with stuff. We spoke about my job... I work in the jewish community. She said that she used to work in Williamsberg and BP, and SO many of the issues were from mohers/daughters and enmeshment. Feelings do have a place here. And sometimes they override kibud av/em!

ValleyMom

Fri, May 05 2017, 10:46 am

"Doing what's best for me" means I am engaging in self care.

It is important as a wife and a mom and a daughter and a sister that I make sure that I am a top priority when I make decisions.

It took me many many years to come to the conclusion that I need to take good care of myself.

This doesn't necessarily mean manicure and massages it means valuing myself as a person.

amother

Lemon

Fri, May 05 2017, 10:48 am

treestump wrote:

You are not responsible for your mother's feelings. If she feels shame because you, as an adult right after birth, need a quieter place to recuperate, that is her issue to work through. Not yours.

.

This. Taken to an even worse extreme, a friend of mine stayed in a physically abusive marriage because her parents said they would be shamed if she left her husband. The day she got up from shiva after they were nifter was the day she filed for divorce. It's as hard for me to understand how parents can value their social status above their dd's safety as it is to understand how a dd can agree.

marina

Fri, May 05 2017, 11:14 am

I totally agree with you OP. It is always shocking to me to see how many people push elevating your own feelings above consideration for others.

I really think this is part of the developing Western culture- it's all about me and my needs and my individuality. In other cultures, they're not like this.

And really people, sometimes you just need to suck it up and put yourself second and not think about it anymore. And that doesn't mean you will be forever resentful and traumatized and hold it all in and burst out one day in hysterical crying or anger. You actually can pat yourself on the back, forget about it and MOVE ON.

Not going to your mom's house if you know that she'll be so upset about it? Barring unusual circumstances, that's not acceptable anytime, whether after delivery or ever. Why would you even consider that? She gave you life. You can't give her a few days? Just put yourself second and MOVE ON.

Last edited by marina on Fri, May 05 2017, 11:18 am; edited 1 time in total

pause

Fri, May 05 2017, 11:18 am

yogabird wrote:

Healthy mothers want their "babies" to do what's best for them.

THIS.

marina

Fri, May 05 2017, 11:21 am

And no, it doesn't mean you're a shmatteh or whatever. There is an entire universe btw "I'm always dishrag, please wipe your feet on me" and "I sometimes put other people first when I know it means a lot to them."

pause

Fri, May 05 2017, 11:22 am

amother wrote:

No right and no obligation to the bolded. Sorry.

marina

Fri, May 05 2017, 11:27 am

pause wrote:

No right and no obligation to the bolded. Sorry.

We always have a moral obligation to be kind. That's literally the most important thing in the world and so many people fail at the most important thing.

pause

Fri, May 05 2017, 11:29 am

marina wrote:

We always have a moral obligation to be kind. That's literally the most important thing in the world and so many people fail at the most important thing.

True. But clearly if the child is going nine out ten to the in-laws, there's a reason they don't want or can't be at the parents' house. A reason that trumps being kind.

pause

Fri, May 05 2017, 11:32 am

There's no even-steven when it comes to where young marrieds stay for Shabbas/YT/summer vacations/etc. The couple has the right to decide where to be when.

tichellady

Fri, May 05 2017, 11:33 am

marina wrote:

I usually agree with you, but not here. I do think it's important to be considerate of other peoples feelings and to sometimes go beyond your comfort zone for other people but I think that there are times when that is definitely not true- when you are ill, postpartum, struggling emotionally etc you get to focus on your own needs. Yes you should be kind and considerate in your wording and show gratitude but that is not the time to be worrying about other peoples feelings.