Why does everyone say 'do whats best for you'?

marina

Fri, May 05 2017, 11:59 am

allthingsblue wrote:

I decided to lose my amother cover. I'm that poster.

I'm talking about regular PP, not PPD (although I did have a hard time getting back to myself emotionally, longer than most people I know, but I was never officially diagnosed with PPD and for sure not when my postpartum housing arrangements were decided.)

My point is, postpartum is such a sensitive time that even Halacha views it as such, with different rules about fasting and hilchos shabbos.

Being kind does not mean listening to foolish customs or making everyone happy at all times. It means doing things in a kind way, if need be.

For example, I didn't say, "hey, mom, I'm going to my in laws because it's bigger and quieter and I like it better. See ya. Bye."
I said, "ma, I'm sorry it has to be this way and I feel bad because I know you were looking forward to having me stay with you, but I think I have to stay at my in laws after I give birth. It's going to be hard for me to have to share a bathroom with a lot of siblings and not have the quiet I need. It's nothing personal, it's just that that is what works better for me at this time. I'm really sorry and of course we'd love for you to come visit the new baby at my in laws whenever you want!!! Thank you for everything you've done for us. "
(Mind you, she never once asked me whether I'd like to stay there, or what my postpartum plans would be- she just automatically assumed I would because "everyone does". I found out from my siblings.)

How is that unkind? I was kind but form with what I said. How she chooses to interpret it is up to her.

I'm not saying you spoke unkindly or were rude or anything like that. I'm just saying that maybe it would have been kind to avoid hurting her even if it means having a bit less quiet or having to share a bathroom for a few days.

As an aside, I don't like the idea of "how she chooses to interpret it is up to her." That's a slippery slope for me.

tichellady

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:02 pm

marina wrote:

I dk. I can't define it well. Maybe in this context I mean just avoid hurting people whenever feasible, even if it means being somewhat occasionally uncomfortable yourself.

Ok but you realize there can be lots of competing people not to hurt- like your husband, your mother and your mother in law. Who's to say the mother always comes first? Who's to say what "somewhat occasionally uncomfortable" means? We all have different abilities to tolerate discomfort and that should be relevant.

Fox

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:02 pm

marina wrote:

Sure, there are some reasons that trump being kind. Like if they are abusive or whatever. But if your reason is just about your general comfort or whatever, that doesn't trump anything.

I know everyone gets sick of me just trailing along, agreeing with every single thing Marina says . . . Wink

However, as she and Simple1 said, the line between appropriate self-care and refusing to bestir ourselves to go outside our comfort zones has become increasingly blurred.

The problem with any example we give is that there are a million variables that could change the equation 180 degrees.

I mean, there have been threads where an OP says, for example, "I don't feel comfortable staying with my new baby at my mother's house." Everyone chimes in, and ten pages later, the OP says, "Well, I just can't get past the fact that she allows her uncaged boa constrictor to slither around the house." And then everyone says, "Huh? What boa constrictor?!"

In the example used in this thread, there are all kinds of factors that come into play. If you're 40, just had a C-section, and mom wants to put you on the fourth floor of her townhouse? Well, that's different from being 25, having had a quick natural delivery, and staying in mom's ranch house. Declining to trot up four flights of stairs after a C-section isn't being princessy -- it's being medically responsible. However, hurting your mom's feelings simply because you like the mini-bar in MIL's guest suite doesn't cut it.

Sure, we could spend the rest of our lives dreaming up scenarios in which someone would be perfectly justified in saying, "Me first!" Abusive, manipulative people. Physically dangerous situations. Excessive inconvenience to third parties. Boa constrictors roaming the hallways at night.

The important thing is to have a mindset of pushing your boundaries, of being willing to experience a small amount of discomfort in pursuit of becoming a more giving person. Most of us need validation of our feelings from time to time, but we also need to occasionally hear, "You're fine, Princess. Walk it off!"

tichellady

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:05 pm

marina wrote:

It would have been kind of Her mother to say " honey, please do what's best for you. You just had a baby!"

I'm realizing how lucky I am to have my parents by reading this thread. They really want the best for me and rarely push me to do things I want just for their sake. Probably because if the way they treat me, I actually do want to spend time with them and make that a priority

tichellady

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:07 pm

Fox wrote:

I know everyone gets sick of me just trailing along, agreeing with every single thing Marina says . . . Wink

Fox, why do you think that a daughter has an obligation to stay with her mom after she gives birth? Do you also live in a world where this is expected? This is beyond bizarre to me. I can maybe name one or two people who stayed with their parents after they gave birth, but this is just not a thing where I live ( thank Gd)

marina

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:09 pm

tichellady wrote:

Sure. And if we were talking to her mother, we would mention that maybe.

But we're talking to her. And being kind doesn't depend on whether the other person is attuned to your needs or sensitive.

It's not about being nice to people who are always nice to you- that takes no effort. This is about more than that.

marina

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:12 pm

tichellady wrote:

personally for me it was the opposite. My mother came to my house the first time and I was not comfortable because I felt like the house had to be clean and food had to be made, etc. Second and third time I went to her house and just slept and was taken care of all day- it was great.

But if my mother wanted to come to my house and it was important to her and she would have been hurt the other way? Of course I'd have her over. And I don't even have a great relationship with her- she's kind of nuts.

marina

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:17 pm

Zehava wrote:

oh marina marina
Being kind to unkind people is a very nice lofty ideal and a very personal decision.
But to guiltrip someone for looking out for herself at an extremely vulnerable time in her life is extremely unkind of you.

Maybe. I am, in fact, a lot more unkind online than in real life.

On the other hand, it's not like the poster wrote about her birthing experience and I jumped in all judgmental and guilt-tripping. This is a thread started by someone else about this specific attitude and the poster came in with her example, to which I am responding. A little different.

Tzutzie

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:17 pm

I agree 100% with all of Pause's posts.

In 'healthy' situations, parents want what's best for their children. And they take responsibility for their own happiness.

Unfortunately, there are lots of 'unhealthy' people.

In a healthy situation, barring extreme circumstances (sleeping on couches pp etc. Extreme noise. Very difficult birth) children WANT to go to their parents post partum if that is how they grew up.
And in healthy circumstances, the mother would be happy to see her dd doing what's best for her and her family in such a time.

tichellady

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:17 pm

marina wrote:

I guess we disagree about this. I don't see being kind to unkind people as this supreme value. It's definitely something to strive for, but there are plenty of other things I need to work on before I get there. I could also see how this value could lead to lots of abuse and dysfunctional relationships.

Fox

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:23 pm

tichellady wrote:

I don't. I'm just using the example that was brought up here.

Listen, people are messy and complex. They have desires and expectations that may be objectively bizarre. It may have to do with cultural factors, but just as often, it's a combination of personal preferences, experiences, and whatever neuroses they possess.

Let me give you an example from my real life:

My parents are very, very well-off. But they were raised during the Depression and would make the most frugal Imamothers look like spendthrifts. They live in a retirement community about 90 minutes away from me, and I drive there twice a week to spend time with them.

One of my tasks is to take my mother to Aldi's, a super-discount grocery chain. For various reasons, this is an incredible hassle, and my mother could easily order groceries to be delivered from a nearby store. Given that they are really only purchasing breakfast food and snacks, we're not talking about hundreds or even tens of dollars of savings.

I do it because my mom wants to go to Aldi's so that she can save $1 on cereal every month. Frankly, I spend many times that on gas to take her there. But that's what she wants, and I do it because she's my mom. I figure that, middah keneged middah, my kids will hopefully overlook my mishegasim someday.

Would I do it if I were physically ill one week? No. Would I do it if gas went up to $8 a gallon? No. Would I do it if Mom insisted on bringing a pet boa constrictor with her? No. But as long as the inconvenience to me is manageable, I'll do what I can to make her happy.

tichellady

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:30 pm

Fox wrote:

I get that. I also go out of my comfort zone for my parents, my husband, friends and sometimes people in the community (hosting meals or going to events because they need more people attending) . But I also try not to judge others when they don't do that. And I also try to be open to hearing feedback from people who are close to me about when I'm being unfair and have unrealistic expectations from them. My husband and I visit his elderly grandparents even though their guest room is extremely uncomfortable and I am often rather hungry when we go to their house. but, would I visit If I were pregnant or post partum? No way. They are not willing to hear how they could be better hosts ( or let us buy our own food or go to a restaurant etc) and I'm not willing to subject myself to a few days of no sleep and hunger in a time where my comfort is already compromised. that is 100% valid.

watergirl

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:32 pm

marina wrote:

But Marina, in this situation that we are talking about, it sounds like this mother was more into doing this because its "whats done". Not out of kindness or concern for her daughter. Out of her idea that this is what she is expected to do, and the daughter is supposed to oblige. Where is kindness here?

I dont have frum parents, and we never lived in a place where there were these types of communal norms like posted on this site, but I know that some "norms" or expectations are across cultures. When I was sitting shivah for my mother, my MIL wanted to come stay with us to "help". Why was she so insistent she come in from out of town? Not to pay a shivah call to me, her DIL, but because it will look weird if she isnt there. Thats literally what she said. She also said that her co-workers and expended family expected her to come, and thats why she wanted to come. Well, I was 9 months pregnant, my mother had been ill for a very long time - over 2 years, she had been in the hospital for 4 whole months and never made it home. Not once did my MIL pick up the phone and call my mother and ask how she is. She never even asked me how she was doing unless I brought it up. So she clearly only cared to come and help when people were watching. So I told her no. Stay home. I had a 3 bedroom apartment, a number of children in their rooms and at my stage of pregnancy, I couldnt deal with kids in my bed. I was not interested in having her sleep on the couch, where I was receiving visitors, and she wasnt willing to sleep in a hotel. So I put myself first, even if it meant her having to tell her friends that I didnt want her to come. So I can relate to Allthingsblue (the amother who went to her MIL's instead of her mothers).

I really feel that there is a time to be kind and make yourself uncomfortable. I get that. But they key is to decide WHEN and WHY and what the other person's motives are. Sometimes, putting yourself first is very important.

Last edited by watergirl on Fri, May 05 2017, 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

allthingsblue

Fri, May 05 2017, 12:33 pm

Fox wrote:

Did you do it when you were postpartum?