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-> Interesting Discussions
yksraya
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 Tue, May 09 2017, 6:49 pm
| Orchid wrote: | If I were facing losing my kids and had the power of holding the get hostage at my disposal to prevent such travesty, I would indeed use it, as many men do today.
The problem is, women have no such last-resort nuclear option.
THAT's why people are against a man using it as a bargaining chip - because women have no such correlating bargaining chip. |
Women who do that should not claim they are agunahs tho. Bec they have a choice. The ones who have no choice, are those who need advocating.
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ally
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Tue, May 09 2017, 6:52 pm
| Seas wrote: | I've seen that argument several times on this site and have never understood the logic behind it.
Imagine you were in danger of either losing access to your children or being financially extorted (and in plenty of cases both), and the only power of protection you had was to withhold a get until you can get an iron clad guarantee that the above wouldn't happen. Why on earth would you give that up? |
This is true. And is the exact reason why the get should become a religious ritual that is entirely disassociated with the divorce settlement.
| Seas wrote: | | What's so sacrosanct about a get that even if a man is in said position of being extorted and/or losing access to his kids, that he has to grant the get with no strings attached? |
It's not sacrosanct but it is difficult to reach a fair settlement when two parties are not on equal footing.
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amother
Coffee
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Tue, May 09 2017, 6:54 pm
| Orchid wrote: | If I were facing losing my kids and had the power of holding the get hostage at my disposal to prevent such travesty, I would indeed use it, as many men do today.
The problem is, women have no such last-resort nuclear option.
THAT's why people are against a man using it as a bargaining chip - because women have no such correlating bargaining chip. |
Why would a man be at risk of not being allowed to see his children? In US civil courts, for example, they routinely give shared legal and physical custody unless there's a real reason not to, and give child molesters supervised visitation! So I'm not buying the argument.
A get isn't a bargaining chip. Its a battering ram. Give me what I want, or you will never be free.
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Orchid
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Tue, May 09 2017, 6:55 pm
| yksraya wrote: | | Women who do that should not claim they are agunahs tho. Bec they have a choice. The ones who have no choice, are those who need advocating. |
Women who do what?
I was being theoretical. Seas was saying that there's nothing wrong with men who use the get as a bargaining chip when faced with devastating losses, and challenged us to proclaim that, under the same circumstances, we would not use whatever we had at our disposal to prevent such devastation. She's right. If I, as a woman, had the power of get refusal, I would too use it to prevent losing my kids (if it came to that).
But then I reminded her that we, in fact, do not have the power.
So we're back to where we started, which is that men ultimate power that women do not.
I'm not sure what I wrote that you disagree with 
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tichellady
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Tue, May 09 2017, 7:05 pm
| Seas wrote: | And I call BeeEs. In a number of their cases (from their website), the woman was clearly in the wrong and she was crying agunah not because her husband wouldn't give a get, but because he wouldn't on her terms.
As to get refusal being abusive, the most you can say is that it's a form of violence. Well guess what, violence is permitted in self defense. A man would have to be crazy to give up his one bargaining chip without guaranteeing his own safety. |
So do you thinks a woman is justified to kill her husband in order to avoid the extortion of her husband denying her a get? Let's say he won't give her a get unless she agrees to equal custody and she knows for a fact that he is abusive, and what normal mom would leave her children in the hands of an abusive man. After all, violence is permitted in self-defense. So she should just kill him, right?
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Orchid
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Tue, May 09 2017, 7:08 pm
| amother wrote: | Why would a man be at risk of not being allowed to see his children? In US civil courts, for example, they routinely give shared legal and physical custody unless there's a real reason not to, and give child molesters supervised visitation! So I'm not buying the argument.
A get isn't a bargaining chip. Its a battering ram. Give me what I want, or you will never be free. |
FYI, there are a great many corrupt family courts out there and I know people (as in, several) PERSONALLY who had their parental rights stripped. It happens a lot in my state, which I will not name (it's not NY or environs). I don't want to go down that rabbit hole now, but if you are so inclined, start googling and you'll find many thousands of instances where family courts essentially sold children to the highest bidder. I am part of facebook support groups for women who lost their children entirely. (In one case - of a Jewish family - the evil judge refused to admit into evidence the CPS report of abuse taking place by dad, and refused to call to testify the ER doctors who treated the abused child and let them sit in court all day and still would not call them to testify.) Unbelievable, and until I stumbled across this, I couldn't have imagined this would take place in the USA, but it is indeed the truth. Like I said, I have personal knowledge of this.
Putting all this aside, of course the get should not be used as a bargaining chip. But like Seas suggested, if you were truly faced with the plight of losing your kids entirely (let's just say), would you not use whatever you had at your disposal? Of course you would. That's not the problem. The problem is that, on the flip side, women have no such option. That's why it's an awful situation, where ultimately men have all the power. And use the get as a battering ram, like you wrote.
Last edited by Orchid on Tue, May 09 2017, 8:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Puce
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Tue, May 09 2017, 7:14 pm
| cnc wrote: | Do you understand what a heter meah rabbanim is? Of course there's a get. It's left in BD for the wife to pick up when she decides to.
He has the option of not paying her and leaving a get for her, assuming that the rabbanim find his reasons valid.
I know people that have done it. (I'm thinking of three offhand, 2 that I know of personally.) |
Rabbanim locally won't do the heter or be mesader kedushin with it. and most girls won't marry someone with it. They don't want the baggage. She refuses to go to BD with him! She bad mouths him, ruined his reputation, cost financial losses..... And she won't go without him paying her $$$. So he is an Agun.
He isn't asking for anything- just show up!
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amother
Puce
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Tue, May 09 2017, 7:19 pm
| Seas wrote: | And I call BeeEs. In a number of their cases (from their website), the woman was clearly in the wrong and she was crying agunah not because her husband wouldn't give a get, but because he wouldn't on her terms.
As to get refusal being abusive, the most you can say is that it's a form of violence. Well guess what, violence is permitted in self defense. A man would have to be crazy to give up his one bargaining chip without guaranteeing his own safety. |
ORA will start pressuring the man after only hearing her side. I know of 2 cases where threats were made before ORA even spoke to the guy or Rabbanim involved!
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amother
Puce
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Tue, May 09 2017, 7:26 pm
| amother wrote: | Why would a man be at risk of not being allowed to see his children? In US civil courts, for example, they routinely give shared legal and physical custody unless there's a real reason not to, and give child molesters supervised visitation! So I'm not buying the argument.
A get isn't a bargaining chip. Its a battering ram. Give me what I want, or you will never be free. |
I would likely do whatever is in my power to keep my kids. But depending on the state you live in, custody and visitation are weird and random. "Best interests of child" is the standard in some cases and might just rely on who has more $$ and a better lawyer. I know one case where terrifying abuse was alleged. One parent has no custody and only gets minis small visitation. And it didn't happen. She had told Rabbanim (who testified) and askanim that it didn't occur.
And visitation doesn't equal joint custody. One side can just refuse visitation claiming the daughter is sick, has an appointment etc. how can you prove to court that mom was lying?
Eta- now that I read what I wrote, the ex wife is the abusive side in this divorce!!
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tichellady
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Tue, May 09 2017, 7:34 pm
| amother wrote: | | ORA will start pressuring the man after only hearing her side. I know of 2 cases where threats were made before ORA even spoke to the guy or Rabbanim involved! |
ORA is just the worst. We should all pray for those innocent men who are abused by batei din and the Jewish legal system which clearly favors women. There isn't actually an agunah crisis at all, just women who want their visitation rights and child support agreements to be determined fairly. What crazy women! Don't they realize that Jewish men should always have the upper hand when making all decisions pertaining to family life.
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amother
Puce
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Tue, May 09 2017, 7:49 pm
| tichellady wrote: | | ORA is just the worst. We should all pray for those innocent men who are abused by batei din and the Jewish legal system which clearly favors women. There isn't actually an agunah crisis at all, just women who want their visitation rights and child support agreements to be determined fairly. What crazy women! Don't they realize that Jewish men should always have the upper hand when making all decisions pertaining to family life. |
Stop with the hyperbole. It is ridiculous.
There is clearly a difference between trying to advocate for women and not being willing to talk to the guy! One of the men I know got threats and his boss (no familial connection, just that he employed the man) was threatened with protests if he wasn't immediately fired --without even talking to the guy!
Advocate for them to go to mediation by an "approved" fair person. Or try talking to him and see if a nonpartisan individual can see what his Hangup is. If he just wants 1 million dollars it is very different than he just wants some sort of enforceable visitation agreement.
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cnc
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Tue, May 09 2017, 7:54 pm
| amother wrote: | Rabbanim locally won't do the heter or be mesader kedushin with it. and most girls won't marry someone with it. They don't want the baggage. She refuses to go to BD with him! She bad mouths him, ruined his reputation, cost financial losses..... And she won't go without him paying her $$$. So he is an Agun.
He isn't asking for anything- just show up! |
I find that very hard to believe. In all the cases that I know of the men remarried shortly after. One of them was engaged a couple of months after the HMR.
People may be hesitant to go out with the guy because of baggage or rumors that they heard, but that has nothing to with the HMR.
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amother
Seafoam
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Tue, May 09 2017, 7:56 pm
| amother wrote: | Stop with the hyperbole. It is ridiculous.
There is clearly a difference between trying to advocate for women and not being willing to talk to the guy! One of the men I know got threats and his boss (no familial connection, just that he employed the man) was threatened with protests if he wasn't immediately fired --without even talking to the guy!
Advocate for them to go to mediation by an "approved" fair person. Or try talking to him and see if a nonpartisan individual can see what his Hangup is. If he just wants 1 million dollars it is very different than he just wants some sort of enforceable visitation agreement. |
So when the ex wife wants a fair custody agreement and has no halachically recourse to get it that's ok though?
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yksraya
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Tue, May 09 2017, 8:22 pm
| Orchid wrote: | Women who do what?
I was being theoretical. Seas was saying that there's nothing wrong with men who use the get as a bargaining chip when faced with devastating losses, and challenged us to proclaim that, under the same circumstances, we would not use whatever we had at our disposal to prevent such devastation. She's right. If I, as a woman, had the power of get refusal, I would too use it to prevent losing my kids (if it came to that).
But then I reminded her that we, in fact, do not have the power.
So we're back to where we started, which is that men ultimate power that women do not.
I'm not sure what I wrote that you disagree with |
Sorry, meant to quote another post. But what I meant is that woman who refuse to accept the get, unless extortion is met, should not consider themselves agunahs.
And as u see, refusing to accept the get is kind of similar to not granting a get. Not only men can be jerks...
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amother
Puce
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Tue, May 09 2017, 8:29 pm
| amother wrote: | | So when the ex wife wants a fair custody agreement and has no halachically recourse to get it that's ok though? |
IME the mom is the courts automatic first choice for custody. Even if split, young kids usually go to the mom.
All I am saying is that there are exceptions to every rule. Not every man is in the wrong, not every self-proclaimed is really one, and what is public ally known may not be the whole truth.
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tichellady
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Tue, May 09 2017, 8:30 pm
| yksraya wrote: | Sorry, meant to quote another post. But what I meant is that woman who refuse to accept the get, unless extortion is met, should not consider themselves agunahs.
And as u see, refusing to accept the get is kind of similar to not granting a get. Not only men can be jerks... |
I agree. If a couple'a marriage is over the husband should give the get and the wife should accept it and then they can iron out all the arrangements with a mediator, beit din or a secular court.
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Seas
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Tue, May 09 2017, 8:31 pm
The question isn't whether there aren't any nasty men. Of course they exist. We probably all know a few!
However, statically speaking, there are as many nasty women as there are nasty men. And the same statistics would suggest in 50% of divorce cases it's the woman who's worse than the man. Anything from just above average nasty to way beyond wicked - that's how statistics work.
Now in those cases, the man is at risk of losing his children and/or his money. His only bargaining chip is the get. To suggest that he just gives up his ace, so that the playing field is levelled and he be at the mercy of his nasty ex is, quite frankly, ludicrous.
Whether you feel he has an unfair advantage or not is irrelevant, the fact is that he's got something he could use to protect himself, and it would be stupid to simply throw it away.
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Orchid
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Tue, May 09 2017, 8:34 pm
| Seas wrote: | The question isn't whether there aren't any nasty men. Of course they exist. We probably all know a few!
However, statically speaking, there are as many nasty women as there are nasty men. And the same statistics would suggest in 50% of divorce cases it's the woman who's worse than the man. Anything from just above average nasty to way beyond wicked - that's how statistics work.
Now in those cases, the man is at risk of losing his children and/or his money. His only bargaining chip is the get. To suggest that he just gives up his ace, so that the playing field is levelled and he be at the mercy of his nasty ex is, quite frankly, ludicrous.
Whether you feel he has an unfair advantage or not is irrelevant, the fact is that he's got something he could use to protect himself, and it would be stupid to simply throw it away. |
Look, we can't change the reality. It just really really stinks that the male victims of nasty ex wives have a nuclear option but the female victims of nasty ex husbands don't.
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yksraya
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Tue, May 09 2017, 8:36 pm
| Seas wrote: | The question isn't whether there aren't any nasty men. Of course they exist. We probably all know a few!
However, statically speaking, there are as many nasty women as there are nasty men. And the same statistics would suggest in 50% of divorce cases it's the woman who's worse than the man. Anything from just above average nasty to way beyond wicked - that's how statistics work.
Now in those cases, the man is at risk of losing his children and/or his money. His only bargaining chip is the get. To suggest that he just gives up his ace, so that the playing field is levelled and he be at the mercy of his nasty ex is, quite frankly, ludicrous.
Whether you feel he has an unfair advantage or not is irrelevant, the fact is that he's got something he could use to protect himself, and it would be stupid to simply throw it away. |
That is why I'm saying that a woman who refuses the get unless "extortion" or "full custody" (given the man is not abusive) is met, should not proclaim herself an agunah, as she does a disservice to real agunahs.
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tichellady
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Tue, May 09 2017, 8:45 pm
| Seas wrote: | The question isn't whether there aren't any nasty men. Of course they exist. We probably all know a few!
However, statically speaking, there are as many nasty women as there are nasty men. And the same statistics would suggest in 50% of divorce cases it's the woman who's worse than the man. Anything from just above average nasty to way beyond wicked - that's how statistics work.
Now in those cases, the man is at risk of losing his children and/or his money. His only bargaining chip is the get. To suggest that he just gives up his ace, so that the playing field is levelled and he be at the mercy of his nasty ex is, quite frankly, ludicrous.
Whether you feel he has an unfair advantage or not is irrelevant, the fact is that he's got something he could use to protect himself, and it would be stupid to simply throw it away. |
Let's say she's not nasty , and he is, is it fair for him to use the get to extort her?
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