Difference between Young Israel and Chofetz Chaim

amother

Khaki

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 11:17 am

amother wrote:

Trying to understand the philosophy and differences if any between a school that says it's Young Israel verse one that is Chofetz Chaim. Would one have more of an emphasis on secular studies and encourage college or would neither promote it. Thanks

Worlds apart. YI is MO. CC is black hat yeshivish.

amother

Khaki

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 11:26 am

amother wrote:

I'm not MO but my understanding of MO philosophy re secular education is that secular education is affirmatively good. Hashem created the world, He created science, and therefore learning secular knowledge has value for its own sake.

The yeshivish hashkafa goes more on the spectrum of viewing secular learning as wrong because it's taking time away from Torah learning, or wrong because a college environment can never be kosher or bec. of apikorsus; or, on the other end of the spectrum, a necessary evil because in today's world, it's hard to support a family without a degree.

I wouldn't say that CC "promotes" college but probably more on the "necessary evil" end of the spectrum. Many CC parents want their kids to have a degree, and the yeshiva understands that.

CC does not believe in kollel forever, but views kiruv, chinuch, etc. as more of an ideal for a boy than, say being an accountant. But when speaking to an individual boy, obviously there are many factors they would take into account in how to give specific advice.

Hth.

miami85

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 11:50 am

Not sure I know the difference 100%, but this is my take. They tend to have different leanings hashkafically, more YIs that I know of are Modern-Orthodox and zionistic, whereas Chofetz Chaim tends to be more main-stream halacha but more "community" oriented--they set up shop in places that need an infusion of Orthodoxy and kind of "bend the community" in a torah-direction, no special emphasis on Eretz Yisroel, but are not "anti-"prayers for the government/state of Israel as long as the overall attitude is one of "halacha" and "torah hashkafa". There is a "tendency" for them if they are going to adopt a shul for them to adopt a Young Israel b/c as far as I know that since YI has to abide by certain basic minimum with regard to halacha/mechitza etc. and therefore they can't be swayed by a board that wants a "conservdox" approach. Chofetz Chaim does place an "emphasis" on responsible earnings/livelihood and if that means getting an education so-be-it, but they don't outright encourage college/secular studies.

Chofetz chaim is not a typical "yeshivish" mentality, they believe that we are all "ovdei Hahsem" and we have to serve Hashem with our G-d given talents--whether that's teaching, becoming a doctor, or tight-rope-walker--but ideally in a Torah-context. If you are better servicing the klal out of town--then you go, if you are needed in NY, then you stay. They place an emphasis on self-growth and learning based on what's actually written in the Torah versus fluffy interpretations based on "Feeling" and "inspiration", based on as early-writings as possible (rishonim vs. acharonim etc.).

SixOfWands

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:24 pm

amother wrote:

OP here hmmm now I'm more confused. Is Young Israels MO officially? There is a MO shul here and it is not where these people go. The Young Israel people I know and the ones who run the school wear black hats and learn in kollel.

Young Israel is pretty much MO by definition. Some skew right. Some skew left. But they are all MO.

amother

Khaki

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:38 pm

Also not sure this is relevant to your question OP, but CC is different than typical mainstream black hat yeshivos in a few ways:
(1) it's a mussar yeshiva; ie, a strong emphasis on the learning and studying of mussar as a subject, not just something that's suggested the boys may consider reading once in a while on their own; (and the boys do have a reputation for great middos afaik)

(2) the style of learning gemara; the goal is to learn slowly, cover less ground perhaps, but in great depth, as opposed to other yeshivos where the goal is to cover more material but not delve as deep; and

(3) they do believe in what they call "kiruv krovim", where they send boys and families out to build up frum communities. It's not being mekarev people who are not religious, but strengthening frum communities that already exist, possibly starting schools, etc.

Eta. And another thing
(4) They're known to be more American (vs European/litvish), ex. they pronounce vov as "Oh" not "oi"; boys can wear striped shirts instead of just white, and a little more chilled, or stylish, or cool....(but honestly I don't think this really holds true anymore and is 100% silly)

miami85

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 2:23 pm

amother wrote:

Overall, YI is MO the "young" implies "fresh approach", I.e. "Modern"--that said it is connected with OU so it has to abide by a minimal level of halacha, and I believe that part of their charter says that they say the prayers for the US and Israeli govts.
I also know of several Young Israels that do not have a traditional MO crowd--one in particular is run by a CC rav, the other has to do more about the make up of families and the previous rav. Might have to do with who the rav is and HIS hashkafos more than YI specifically.

amother

Mint

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 2:40 pm

miami85 wrote:

. There is a "tendency" for them if they are going to adopt a shul for them to adopt a Young Israel b/c as far as I know that since YI has to abide by certain basic minimum with regard to halacha/mechitza etc. .

Thanks for this. that helped me understand why (maybe why) a young israel shul I went to a few years ago 'felt' very different from others I went to. Perhaps it was 'post' adoption from CC included people.

amother

Mistyrose

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 2:42 pm

The Young Israel that I have been a part of for more than 30 years is a Young Israel in name only. When the Shul was founded that was the organization they were part of, so they still are. Although there is a mix, the hashkafa of both the rav (who is a musmach of CC) and most members leans much more to yeshivish than to MO.
I think each Shul is going to be different based on the community it is a part of. A community that has 25 shuls, the YI may cater to the more MO crowd. A community that has 2 shuls, the YI may become more yeshivish over time because of the people moving in.

imasoftov

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 3:38 pm

miami85 wrote:

Their approach was fresh in 1915 when they started

Connected with OU?

Minimal level of halacha?

nylon

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 8:28 am

"mainstream" vs "MO" approach... sigh.

Historically Young Israel has been centrist to modern. The flavor of each congregation does vary. In the past decade or more, the national council has has gone a bit rightward and there are certain areas in which they are more conservative than the more liberal MO shuls:

1) Presidents must be male and Jewish from birth (they have also always required that the officers be shomer shabbat)
2) No women's tefilla;
3) no women leyning megilla
4) no family memberships for intermarried people

(in addition they also require that the national council approve all new rabbis, which was viewed as a way to prevent YCT graduates from gaining pulpits).

I don't know if the OU has a minimum mechitza height (there is actually, or was, a shul that had no mechitza and was grandfathered in) but I have never been in a YI that had a low mechitza, while I have been in other Orthodox shuls that did.

miami85

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 8:51 am

imasoftov wrote:

Their approach was fresh in 1915 when they started

Connected with OU?

Minimal level of halacha?

This is what I thought my husband (whos' rav is a CC rav of a Young Israel) told me--albeit a while ago. I could be mistaken.

However it does say this in the NCYI Constitution that in order to belong to YI :

1) conducting traditional Orthodox services in accordance with halacha, with proper decorum and congregational singing; ...

...The Young Israel Council of Rabbis shall establish a Halacha Committee to determine
various halachic issues, including those contemplated herein. Whenever the term
halacha is used in any article herein it shall mean halacha as determined by the Halacha
Committee of the Young Israel Council of Rabbis.

From Wikipedia about Young Israel:
Their goal was to make Orthodox Judaism more relevant to young Americanized Jews, at a time when a significant Jewish education was rare, and most Orthodox institutions were Yiddish-speaking, and oriented to an older, European Jewish demographic.[1]

Today, Young Israel continues to promote Orthodox involvement of modern American Jews, while also advocating for the issues most relevant to its members, including support for Israel and Religious Zionism, and Jewish prisoner support.

amother

Tangerine

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 9:26 am

I believe that once a shul is a Young Israel, they need to stay that way from then on. So if a community evolves, the shul may move right (there's a limit to how left they can move, due to the afore-mentioned rules), but it will remain officially a a Young Israel.

The two I know best have both moved right. One is basically an Agudah now, and the other is RWMO. In one case, the shul moved far enough right that a more left wing shul popped up as another alternative, leaving the YI as the right wing shul in town. In the other, there had been a generational hashkafah shift, but the shul has done a nice job of keeping both the older and newer populations, while slowly shifting things like mechitzah standards, timing on davening, types of programming, etc.

imasoftov

Fri, Jun 16 2017, 9:41 am

amother wrote:

from 2013 National Council of Young Israel changes rule to let shuls quit